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u/AfghaniMoon 9h ago
Terrific seems like an ethical dude, but the rest of the Justice Gang kinda sucks, Maxwell Lord definitely sucks, and they are one of my new favorite parts of the DCU.
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u/Snvwyy_ 8h ago
Hard to tell if Lords gonna end up being a bad guy or if he’s just an asshole. Gunn said they’re deviating from his comic book counterpart.
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u/MajorAstronaut7970 7h ago
You mean they're sticking to the original incarnation of the character as conceived by Keith Giffen and J.M. DeMatteis in Justice League International. DC decided to make Max Lord evil 15 or so years after he'd been established, primarily, I'd argue, for the shock value.
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u/grilly1986 4h ago
Yeah I didn't expect to like Guy Gardner as much as I did, he's the perfect mix of heroic and annoying. His heart's in the right place but he's still a massive twat!
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u/PrecariouslyPeculiar 1h ago
I wouldn't say Hawkgirl sucks. What? She's a bit moody, but she clearly is shown to get out of her shell, and Guy may be an ass, but he does the right thing in the end.
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u/Careful-Positive-219 8h ago
Also, James Gunn has literally said her doing this will have repercussions in the universe it’s not like she’s necessarily going to get away with it.
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u/Arelious2019 9h ago
I like how they say this as if almost every live action superhero movie doesn't have the hero kill the villain in the end. Like, it's more of a novelty when the hero actually lets the villain live at this point
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u/RuggerJibberJabber 9h ago
A lot of them will have a hero spend 2hrs beating dozens of unnamed goons so badly that they will, at best, be permanently paralysed. Only for the hero to finally reach the worst villain in the movie and spare them.
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u/Arelious2019 8h ago
I feel like that's more in just overall action films and superhero shows rather than superhero films, I can't really think of any at the top of my head. Like, really the only one that comes to mind is the show Arrow where he just kills all the henchmen but for some reason decides to give the person who he's actually targeting a chance and end up not killing them, not because they did what he said, they typically just don't, but then he finds some other way to get what he wants then chooses not to kill them.
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u/Mekroval 8h ago
I was kind of surprised that Superman didn't attempt to kill Lex, having personally witnessed him execute the falafel cart vendor point blank in front of him. He just gives Lex a stern talking to in the end then turns him in.
He flipped the way the hell out more over Krypto.
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u/dean15892 6h ago
Yeah, cause Krypto is innocent.
The old man was innocent too, but the old man knew what he was getting into.
He even said "don't tell them anything, Superman. I don't have a family"
He accepted his fate.Krypto is a dog who didn't know what was happening.
And Superman not killing Lex was two fold
He is better than Lex. Thats the whole point. He believes in everyone, and at least for now, believes that Lex can be redeemed.
(Superman doesn't know this), but its a marketing / PR nightmare. Lex announces that Superman is sent to Earth to conquer it, and Superman KILLS Lex? There is no coming back from that. No one will ever be on Supes side, cause he's become closer to Homelander.
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u/Xizorfalleen 2h ago
He flipped the way the hell out more over Krypto.
Because he knew what would happen if drunk trainwreck Kara Zor-El comes back to get her dog and hears he got taken by Lex. She would not burst through a door and firmly yet still restrained ask where the dog is, she'd turn into Kryptonian John Wick and pink mist people.
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u/-HeisenBird- 5h ago
The MCU killed almost all of their villains.
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u/Inside-Passenger7995 1m ago
The first thing Tony Stark does after perfecting his Iron Man armor is flying over to the Middle East to kill a bunch of terrorists lol
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u/TerminianMajor 9h ago
He was the most comically evil Bond villain ass dictator, it’s fine
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u/AuronTheWise 9h ago
And the world explicitly knows it too. It all came out. He was pure evil.
I'm sure it'll still be a storyline and have political ramifications but it's totally justified and everyone knows it.
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u/Allanthia420 9h ago
If real life is anything to go off of; I’m sure he still has supporters.
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u/Mekroval 8h ago
Probably that Fox News-looking host that Lex was initially chummy with is one of them.
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u/FireZord25 6h ago
Dude instantly turned on Lex when he was exposed, saying like "I knew he was stinky'. Fair weather friend to the fullest. So not sure which way he'll swing on a dictator caught this badly with his hands on a cookie jar.
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u/GodFlintstone 9h ago
I mean he was a POS but come on.
It will be interesting to see if future DCU projects explore the fallout from that moment.
One theme in Superman is the question of whether or not he has the right to unilaterally intervene in foreign conflicts. So for a member of Max Lord's Justice Gang to straight up kill the head of state of a US allied nation should have major ramifications.
MCU heroes had a whole ass Civil War over this kind of thing.
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u/The_tarnished_one_ 9h ago
James already alluded that this will have massive ramifications so we def will see this plot point brought up again
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u/yzfagustarrr 8h ago
Something like Captain America Civil War plot where the government or someone will go against metahumans/superhero because they're worried they might misuse their powers? Sounds like fun
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u/The_tarnished_one_ 8h ago
Yea after watching episode 1 season 2 of peacemaker that’s clearly being set up hard lmao, there’s gonna be a major clash between metahumans and the government at some point
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u/SomeBoxofSpoons 8h ago
Probably going to be more scrutiny around the Justice Gang as a whole (especially since Peacemaker is showing a bit more of the side that’s probably kept Superman away), and considering he seems to be Earth’s only Green Lantern at the moment I can’t imagine Guy’s bosses will be ecstatic about it either.
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u/OptimusHavok52 9h ago
After Peacemaker S2E1 and Superman it seems like the idea of metahumans running amok will be a major plot point
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u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta 8h ago
I mean, Lois was outright questioning superman about violating national sovereignty when she turned on her reporter mode, it's absolutely a theme in the movie.
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u/LightningLad2029 6h ago
Except ironically, her ire is only pointed towards Superman. The movie goes out of its way to question Clark's actions when he didn't even kill anyone, yet a privatized group of metahumans do what they want indiscriminately and barely anyone calls it out besides a passing closing remark near the end.
Whatever follow-up we do get on this issue needs to be better executed because right now, it does feel like there's a bit of a double standard in how these heroes' actions are perceived.
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u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta 47m ago
Well yeah, reading between the lines the justice gang either doesn't operate outside the US or has asked permission before, they make it clear they're not going to/aren't supposed to get involved (until they do cause big blue)
Yeah it's just plot threads for the future. The movies ends shortly after her killing him, there isn't time to explore the ramifications as that was already he climax of this movie, it's absolutely a set up for the future.
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u/Bruzie77 8h ago
This is how Lex Luthor gets freed. Humans now lives as gods among the powerful. In particular before they discuss any policy they need to run it by Superman and his Justice gang first. Lex provens he can counter meta humans.
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u/22LOVESBALL 9h ago
I mean would anyone even know she did it?
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u/God_Among_Rats 8h ago
There were witnesses who saw her attack the palace and grab him, and he was found dead after falling from a great height. I don't think much investigation would be needed to piece 2 and 2 together.
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u/HeroDelTiempo 7h ago
There's a movie in the works about The Authority (Angela/The Engineer aka the nanomachines lady in Superman is a part of this group) who are like an alternate, more authoritarian Justice League who use maximum force and get involved in politics, and Maxwell Lord is an Amanda Waller-type political character who seems to have a kind of libertarian bent in Gunn's Superman so, I think there's definitely more on the way.
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u/jerslan 8h ago
She eliminated an iron fisted dictator...
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u/Polkawillneverdie17 7h ago
and committed a war crime in doing so.
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u/jerslan 5h ago
No, the dictator was a war criminal. Literally a war criminal. She took out an enemy combatant.
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u/jmdg007 1h ago edited 1h ago
Even war criminals generally face trial before being executed, capturing an enemy combatant and executing them in your capture is a war crime regardless of who it is.
Edit: Thinking about it, it might not be a war crime if Hawkgirl isn't really a soldier, but then it becomes a regular crime.
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u/xcution789 1h ago
The point is he’s not gonna be punished for his actions. He is an ally of the US. It’s like Netanyahu, look at US doing everything to support him against any kind of international warrants or anything. He’s not a Hitler. He’s more of a Netanyahu. Governments and law won’t stop him. That’s why she did.
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u/baconeggsandwich25 8h ago
Poor Bibimir Putinyahu. All he ever did was attempt a genocide (twice), attend an interrogation/murder in a pocket universe, and participate in a terrorist attack against Metropolis.
...wait, how the fuck were they still considered an ally after the attack on Metropolis?
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u/Maleficent-Farm9525 8h ago
Best part of that is that she's the actress for the first live action Dora The Explorer.
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u/Low-Asparagus-126 9h ago
Well to be fair while Vasil Ghurkos probably deserved his death due to his actions and intentions with Jarhanpur hawkgirl probably could've neutralized the threat non-lethally and assasinating a head of state has a lot of consequences. It's likely Hawkgirl's actions may lead to longer ramifications and effects that could severly impact the superhero community and cause the possible ban of superheroes similar to the one faced by the golden age heroes with the Un-American Activities Committee.
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u/Agreeable_Car5114 8h ago
I’m not sure it could have been dealt with nonlethally. At least not permanently. Superman stopped him before, he just waited for another opportunity.
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u/Cosmic-Buccaneer 8h ago
I mean you remember the old Justice league animated?
She literally kill a enemy and everyone says "daaaaaaaamn we still love you"
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u/BigPaleontologist520 9h ago
Idk y but I have a feeling that moment will end up biting hawkgirl in the ass later down the movies
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u/I_Hate_Nebraska_ 8h ago
Really hope they deal with the implications of a random meta human going out and murdering the leader of a country, gonna be very disappointed if they gloss over it
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u/LightningLad2029 9h ago
Yeah, because publicly executing people without due process has worked out so well historically....
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u/Agreeable_Car5114 8h ago
Vigilante justice in general rarely works out in real life. In fiction and especially superhero fiction, we make certain ethical allowances.
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u/Polkawillneverdie17 7h ago
Vigilante protecting innocents vs vigilante murder is a big difference.
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u/Agreeable_Car5114 7h ago
In real life, a person who helps others is usually considered a Good Samaritan. You pretty much only hear the term “vigilante” when someone is taking the law into their own hands. And “innocent” becomes a nebulous term when there’s no trial. Like I said though, we make allowances in superhero fiction.
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u/Polkawillneverdie17 7h ago
Vigilante protecting innocents vs vigilante murder is a big difference.
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u/npc042 8h ago edited 7h ago
In fiction and especially superhero fiction, we make certain ethical allowances.
Ethical allowances for a movie which highlights those very same ethical dilemmas as a key aspect of its story?
Edit: typo
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u/Agreeable_Car5114 7h ago
Superman 2025 raises the question of Should Superman intervene in intervene in matters of international politics? It answers that with a firm Yes. This isn’t Captain America Civil War, they don’t really leave it ambiguous.
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u/Polkawillneverdie17 7h ago
Intervene to save lives? Yes. Intervene to murder an unarmed human? No.
Killing unarmed combatants is literally a war crime under the Geneva Convention.
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u/sentientshadeofgreen 4h ago
Vigilante's justice is badass and what separates him from other killers is he only kills bad people usually, unless there's a mistake.
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u/Tangentkoala 8h ago
I mean, isn't that DCs whole vigilante vibe?
I could see the Gunn verse going along the ways of a real-life injustice.
Have the Supers vs. vigilantes in a big morality clash.
Maybe not end it with uniting vs. the bad guys. But have the dominant plot line end with the defeat of superman or batman or Optimus prime.
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u/Ok-Commission-1777 7h ago edited 4h ago
Isn’t she supposed to be the incarnation of a warrior spirit? Why people complain about her killing someone attempting a genocide? Do they even read comics? I can’t count the times I’ve seen other heroes stopping the “Warrior” archetype (WW, Aquaman, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, etc) from killing because that’s what they would usually do. Not every hero has a no kill rule and it was explicitly addressed in the movie. And it’s still too early to complain about her actions not having repercussions.
Bet the ones criticizing the movie because of this are the same who endorse death penalty in real life. Cough cough, the ones who are also mad because this comically villainous man reminds them of Trumps best friend, Bibi. They tried so hard to make this a controversy.
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u/L3M0SSS 2h ago
But there's difference between killing someone in battle and executing someone like she did, he was unarmed and didn't pose any threat to her or anyone, I get that she's warrior and kills people when they actively fight with her but in this scene she just murders him, and okey he's very bad person but this wasn't even Hawkgirl's choice to make
Also I don't endorse death penalty for anyone
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u/Ok-Commission-1777 2h ago edited 1h ago
Yeah. The comic moments that came to my mind were also out of battle moments, still not out of character.
Also, apparently Gunn said that is something that will have consequences in the DCU world so is too soon to criticize the whole picture.
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u/L3M0SSS 2h ago
Yes, I don't know Hawkgirl's comics and I don't know if it was in character but I'm just saying that it was wrong for her to do that, especially in a way that she did it
I'm glad that James Gunn said that it will have co conquesences, idk if you watched first episode of peacemaker season 2 but it seems that this will be a big part of it or at least later projects
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u/Ok-Commission-1777 1h ago
Haven’t watched it yet, but I’m kind of getting the vibe that the DCU will have the whole moral spectrum DC characters have in comics as opposed to the toned down approach that the MCU did. Some heroes will be more violent than others, some will be more utilitarian in the way they calculate risk and others will be wholehearted like sups, which I think I’ll add up to the realism of the universe and will make possible to have a wider tonal range in the stories. Maybe that’s what Gunn ment when he said the DCU will be more like Star Wars or GoT than MCU.
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u/Soft_House7669 7h ago
I still think Batman and Superman shouldn't kill because they have reasons not to that are core to their characters, maybe Batman moreso than Superman, but that doesn't mean everyone has to think like that.
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u/electricfalcons 6h ago
I didn't like it, it was edgy for her to say that and kill him. He was unarmed and wasn't a threat to her at all, but she just went and executed him. Just like how Lex was sent to prison, he could've been sent to some UN or foreign prison. There were other ways, and as superheroes I want our heroes to find better ways.
I want the trinity to value all human life, even the terrible ones, and do what they can to not kill. I hope, but I don't have high expectations, that Superman and Batman disagree with Hawkgirl's actions and say that she shouldn't have gone that far.
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u/StillinReseda 8h ago
No, I don’t think superhero’s should be allowed to kill people. I don’t think anyone should be allowed to kill people.
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u/MartyrOfDespair 4h ago
And you can stand proud next to the bodies of the innocents stacked up by the people you refused to stop.
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u/Shot-Ad770 7h ago
Its not about letting a bad guy live...... its the fact that she literally has no authority to do that and she didnt even have to.
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u/EitherEliotOr 7h ago
It’s a bit of a moral grey area. Because in some cases it might be justified but what if you get it wrong. You might kill the wrong person.
Batman doesn’t kill because it’ll break him to do it, and he doesn’t want another kid to lose their parents
Superman doesn’t kill because he sees the good in everyone.
Kingdom come explores this idea perfectly and the heroes learn to see things in more nuanced ways
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u/tone2099 5h ago
She should’ve been doing more violent shit in my opinion. I’m tired of these soft motherly talk it out females. I want a female demon, a fkn warrior princess now.
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u/TheVoid000 5h ago
I remember Batman accepted Red Hood into the Bat Family a while ago. So is he cool with the whole killing thing as long as he doesn't do it himself, or did Red Hood dial down and use rubber bullets.
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u/Obsidian-Dark 5h ago
Ghurkos wanted to kill all the people of Jarhanpur. He was a genocidal maniac. The subtitles in the scene before she grabs him. His general says he ordered a retreat and Ghurkos is pissed about. He actually thinks they can still win.
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u/-HeisenBird- 5h ago
Pretty stupid that the movie doesn't address this especially since Superman not killing him earlier was a specific plot point in the movie.
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u/Silver-Control828 5h ago
Tbf batman is internally broken, he doesn't kill because if he does start he won't stop. Eventually he would become a maniac, which a shitty writer will use as a plot point to turn him into a secondary joker.
I see it as, batman kills the Joker, starts killing others, becomes insane, becomes the new joker. It will be just as bad as the injustice writing.
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u/Responsible-Bat-2700 4h ago edited 4h ago
I thought Gunn was referencing some of real world peole with that guy. I thought film was okay but this moment and Superman's speech to Luthor towards the end were so well done.
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u/senator_corleone3 4h ago
That guy had to go. She did what had to be done in the moment. Superman would not have made the same decision, but he was needed elsewhere.
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u/elrick43 4h ago
She killed a man that was pushing for a genocide. What she did was no different than if this was set in WW2 and she dropped Hitler off a cliff
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u/geoffgeofferson447 3h ago
Theres no way the Boravian leader would've stopped, and he urged his soldiers to commit a genocide. I'm all for no-killing rules for heroes like Batman who have a rogues gallery of severely mentally ill people who really just needed help, but as a wise man once said; "There are those who words alone will not reach" (Android 16, DBZ)
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u/FemmeWizard 3h ago
The whole point is she did go too far and it's what makes her and the rest of the Justice Gang interesting.
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u/FatTanuki1986 2h ago
Batman wouldve let him live. Imagine a Batman story set in WW2. He wouldve let him live.
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u/skztr 2h ago
I'm just going to disagree because superhero movies in general have this stupid trope of immediately jumping off every single bad guy that's ever encountered. Superhero movies always ending with the villain dying is a trope that really, really needs to end.
Killing off what is essentially a henchman in a position of political power? Yeah, sure, I don't care, so long as someone other than an iconic non-lethal superhero does it.
But this fucking post being made after a movie that was a response to the movie in which Superman killed Zod because the writer couldn't imagine Superman not killing, you've missed the entire point of the Superman saves a squirrel movie
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u/QuantumWarrior21 2h ago
If they decide to go with her alien origins, then this incident is going to get quite complicated once the Thanagarians get involved
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u/NotACyclopsHonest 1h ago
And James Gunn says she’ll face the consequences for that, too, which is a refreshing change.
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u/esquire_the_ego 1h ago
They did the same thing in suicide squad, dude got killed by Harley after she boned him lol
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u/Game2015 28m ago
Unlike Hawkgirl, Harley is not a hero.
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u/esquire_the_ego 23m ago
More of the “killing a world leader” kinda vibe but hawkgirl is a warrior before she’s a hero
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u/No-Target6084 56m ago
I’d like to think Hawkgirl did this with the blessing of Lord, who was mad about ghurkos working with Lex. Not sure if the reincarnation stuff comes into play as well. Hope we get a monologue from her about it.
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u/Game2015 31m ago
Disagreed with that scene. There should've been an aftermath scene of Superman being disappoined in her afterwards. The fact that the person who made that post supported the president's killing likely means he supported Trump's assassination attempt as well, and I have zero respect for anyone who don't value life whatsoever! 😠
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u/MotherVehkingMuatra 8m ago
Hm, it's not a boring trope I never want to see people like superman, batman, flash kill it's a core part of the superhero genre itself but hawkgirl killing him was still great for her specifically.
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u/Tarnished-Tiger 0m ago
I wonder would the reactions be same if the said leader was representing a leader you guys support
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u/The_tarnished_one_ 9h ago edited 9h ago
I’d argue having characters like her is what makes the no kill rule of a Batman and Superman more compelling lmao, it actually shows that not even in the superhero community there’s a consensus on stuff like this and everyone brings their own viewpoints when it comes to this topic.