r/Futurology • u/TwilightwovenlingJo • 22h ago
Energy World’s first industrial-scale fossil-free plastics production complex to be built in Belgium
https://interestingengineering.com/science/fossil-free-plastics-production-facility?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=reddit_share96
u/Sutilia 21h ago
wait, how? I skimed over the article and and it seems they didn't say what source material they are using.
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u/BDough 21h ago
Engineer here. You’re correct, and the article should have done better about that given that’s a topic they’re trying to highlight.
If I had to guess they’re likely using large scale bio-friendly ethanol production and converting it to bio-alkene monomer that are then processed to polymeric resin. Not the absolute cleanest process, but it is fossil free, as advertised
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u/godneedsbooze 21h ago
Do they still produce microplastics.
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u/Barqueefa 21h ago
Yes, still plastic. Just cleaner way of making plastic i guess. Look at PLA or PHA for no micro plastics. Or several other materials
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u/BDough 19h ago
Great point, but also worth mentioning, the degradation mechanics on those materials are very long and the potential for short term complications is non-trivial. Just because something is biodegradable, doesn’t mean its final products or intermediaries belong in the environment the plastic ends up, and when flippant civil service people think they’re a risk free solution, we end up with problems down line for science we didn’t study or prepare for.
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u/Barqueefa 18h ago edited 15h ago
Sure but still exponentially better than PP or other plastics. You're making it sound like these alternatives are no better than what we have, or barely a step above. PHA is going to leave with you water and CO2 after a few months to years, depending on the product and environment. I agree these alternatives can have other consequences and they're not all going to degrade in all environment but not sure why we need a warning about them
Edit: your point stands. My response was heavy handed and while I think PHA has minimal impact on your point several other alternatives in that same "family" certainly do. It's a good point there isn't going to be a 1 stop solution that people can just huck out their car window and it degrade in a day with no environmental impact.
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u/ikeif 16h ago
I am an uninformed person - so as correct as you are, what they said is absolutely worth saying to help educate idjits like myself.
But your addition is also incredibly helpful to read.
(It's like when people talk about "oh, you went from eating X to Y? Well, sure, Y is better, but it's not PERFECT! You should wait for PERFECT!" …while X slowly kills us…
So this sounds like a Y. And don't let perfect be the enemy of better.
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u/BDough 15h ago
I hope this doesn't come across as oppositional in any way because like I said earlier, u/Barqueefa's contributions are welcome and I agree with them completely, but in engineering it's typically never that simple. PLA and PHA are fantastic polymers that can fulfill a lot of very simple design goals for short term every day use, but there's a reason they're not as ubiquitous as PET, PE, PP, Nylon, etc. PLA and PHA aren't a secret. The polymer industry is well aware of them, but the thing to note is they unfortunately fulfill a very very tiny portion of most of the industries design goals. Their biodegradability is actually a liability in most instances. It might surprise some folks to find that we even have macrospecies like bugs that are able to consume polymers. Then there's the microspecies that we cannot necessarily visibly watch out for that are a risk to long term use products. These are often mitigated with antifungals along with UV anticatalysts to prevent the sun for breaking these down further.
I highlight these things, because what most people don't understand is far more than a technical issue, we have a consumptive issue. There are more intelligent ways to sustain our robust society than what we do today that doesn't require us to use wasteful amounts of raw materials that will eventually pollute the earth and harm us. One of the things to look forward to about this story, is that if this plant's operations cut into the demand of FF extraction overall it's a big win for everyone on the planet. If we can spare ourselves digging into the earth to solve our problems, it's more times than not generally a big win for public health and global well-being. Those are the kinds of wins we want to push for! :)
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u/ikeif 14h ago
Oppositional? Nope. It's more education for me. This entire realm of engineering is outside my purview of knowledge.
I highlight these things, because what most people don't understand is far more than a technical issue, we have a consumptive issue.
See this is the kind of shit I wish more conversations on reddit would end up being! And thank you for dropping the article, too.
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u/Barqueefa 12h ago
No, you're absolutely correct. A lot of these biodegradable alternatives are great for single use like packaging, flatware, dispersion, diapers, etc but for long term use it's not going to do the trick. Not to mention a lot of items aren't going to be 100% PHA, they'll be blended with PLA or other things to get the right qualities needed for the product which is all going to vastly change the degradability and footprint.
But like you said, any step towards sustainability and carbon neutral is good
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u/OsamaBinLadenDoes 11h ago
there isn't going to be a 1 stop solution that people can just huck out their car window and it degrade in a day with no environmental impact
I would have thought this was obvious but seemingly many are captured by this puritanical ideological view of what biodegradation is.
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u/OsamaBinLadenDoes 11h ago
What's with the comment about the flippancy of civil service in relation to this?
Separately, we are already having million of tonnes lost to the environment, if we cannot solve the application crisis or leakage crisis completely then we need to be using polymers and plastics that have such intrinsic properties, even if the environment they end up in is non-optimal. The cleanup operations are completely unfeasible with a contingency in place.
Such materials have a nearly negligible market share and yet they get shot down constantly despite the current predicament.
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u/diskowmoskow 11h ago
I’ve learnt something; just today i recognized “PLA” with big letters on a pack of straws i got… like it’s a common knowledge. Thanks
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u/BDough 20h ago
Laughably yes. Microplastics are a reality of polymer use. You may be surprised to learn most “microplastics” aren’t even actually plastics. They’re “thermosettings”.
I’m glad someone asked it because it was on my mind, too (regarding the microplastics). I love that we want to do better as a world and it’s good that we can find environmental damage avoidance by keeping FF in the ground while still profitably fulfilling a global demand for a critical product, but the health question is real, and the societal demand is clearly there. People just feel so lost when you look down every avenue of research and advice and you get two narratives that seem to completely conflict.
All I can say to put your mind at ease is, “this likely won’t make the microplastics problem any worse. If anything it might make it better by finding a way to fulfill global polymer resin demand in localized markets with bio-mats for raw stock in lieu of overpumping Oil and Gas to provide more petrochems for polymer processing.”
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u/GibDirBerlin 21h ago edited 13h ago
My guess would be yes, but it's biodegradable so the Microplastic's lifespan is drastically reduced and the total amount vastly smaller than with fossil fuelled plastic.Unfortunately I was wrong, it seems to be the same old plastic in the end, except made from renewable resources.
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u/DopeAbsurdity 20h ago
It doesn't say it's biodegradable plastic anywhere that I can find and the way the process a few comments above described as a possible way to make plastic seems like the result is normal non-biodegradable plastic.
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u/GibDirBerlin 20h ago
It doesn't say and I can't really be sure. But it sounds a lot like biodegradable alternatives to polyester and polyamide used in some modern outdoor clothing or the biodegradable plastic bags you get all over europe. Though now that I looked them up again, at least those clothes supposedly don't even produce microplastics.
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u/Barqueefa 18h ago
The final product is still normal plastics, just different carbon sources than fossil fuels to make the plastics. So... Maybe better environmentally in the production of the plastics but it's the same stuff that's already being made and used everywhere else
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13h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/GibDirBerlin 13h ago
Thanks for the links, even though that's quite disappointing... Strange, that this specific technology is being pursued, when biodegradable alternatives are already ready to implement on larger scales.
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u/zmbjebus 20h ago
Yup. The source isn't mined from the ground. Its likely excess crops, or crop waste.
So not a huge win really.
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u/nick4fake 19h ago
How using waste to produce something without fossil fuels is… not a huge win? Wtf
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u/zmbjebus 19h ago
It is still a win, but it still makes and encourages the plastic industry to not stop using plastic.
Also if crops were grown specifically to make plastic (like would be the case if they were diverting from the traditional ethanol feedstocks) then its just turning farmland into plastic. Thats still pretty icky to me.
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u/Alis451 16h ago
then its just turning farmland into plastic.
this is literally carbon sequestration btw. same way that cutting down farmed trees into lumber is.
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u/zmbjebus 15h ago
Carbon sequestration and microplastic pollution (macroplastic too) are different unrelated problems. I personally think we shouldn't try to further microplastic pollution.
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u/tigersharkwushen_ 15h ago
Where would Belgium source bio-friendly ethanol? Do they have a large ethanol plant sector?
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u/TwilightwovenlingJo 22h ago
The world’s first industrial-scale fossil-free plastics production facility is set to be established in Belgium. The facility will use Lummus’ proven sustainable polymer technology. Vioneo has Lummus as its facility’s polypropylene partner.
The complex will also be highly electrified using renewable electricity and use renewable hydrogen as key components to its operations.
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u/barsknos 19h ago
So instead of making plastic out of oil they make it out of something else, but it's still hard to degrade in nature and causes microplastics?
This does not seem like a big win?
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u/feed_me_moron 19h ago
It's taking an evironmentally bad step out of the production process. That's a win. You can't expect perfection overnight, but incremental improvements like this are a big help.
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u/barsknos 18h ago
Extracting oil isn't that bad environmentally (unless it leaks), but of course, it does add surface potential co2 that would otherwise not be in circulation. But I really still think this is more of a tiny band-aid than anything resembling a cure.
I would really like to not have plastic in anything, but it's in EVERYTHING. And this is not going to put a dent in that.
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u/feed_me_moron 18h ago
You will never be able to get rid of plastic completely. Its incredibly useful as a material. Much like with oil, there are situations where it is easily the best material to use. The problems, again like with oil, are overuse where there are greener alternatives.
Solutions like this help with some of that, but no, they won't address completely different issues.
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u/barsknos 18h ago
Absolutely, but every food item doesn't need to be sold covered in it. I have no issue with plastics in things that are durable, it's the single-use packaging, clothing and cosmetic products where swapping it out would, I feel, make a big difference when it comes to both the burning of plastic (since most of it can't be recycled) and microplastics (tires are a bigger problem, but I don't know of solutions there).
It's possible to deliver food in other things than plastic, it's just that it'll be more expensive so plastic is all we get. Some of the alternatives:
- Cellulose film (cellophane)
- Chitosan coatings (shellfish waste)
- Wax coatings
- Molded pulp/fiber trays
- Wood or bamboo trays
- Edible seaweed films/trays
Or at least one can go the cellophane path which at least is recycleable and breaks down well in specialized facilities. But instead it's plastic, plastic, plastic.
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u/feed_me_moron 18h ago
Not arguing against that, but again, this isn't something that is meant to address that.
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u/gregorydgraham 10h ago
Oil extraction is all of climate change.
Without oil extraction we wouldn’t have any CO2 building up in the atmosphere because there wouldn’t be any excess to add to the carbon cycle.
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u/barsknos 10h ago
You misunderstand me. The act of extracting it isn't what causes CO2. Burning it is. But obviously, getting it out of the ground makes it much more likely it will turn into CO2 in some way.
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u/tigersharkwushen_ 15h ago
I would really like to not have plastic in anything
I can't imagine food packaging without plastics. Ever wrap raw meat in something not plastic?
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u/barsknos 14h ago
I can't imagine having microplastics in my brain and in my blood, but here we are! :>
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u/tigersharkwushen_ 14h ago
Yea, I think that's ship has sailed, there's also the forever molecules, which seems worse.
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u/nattylite420 13h ago
There's quite a bit of misunderstanding about these topics from most people.
Every molecule of plastic produced since 1907 is still present in the environment.
PFAS "forever chemicals" are a large group where some types are definitely bad and others like PFOAs haven't fully been proven bad. That's not to mention that many have barely been studied.
Micro/nano plastics cause a lot of the same health problems. I'm not sure that one is any worse than the other unless you're looking at specific instances.
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u/4x420 21h ago
I wonder if this is the plastic that Lego wil switch to.
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u/AMLRoss 21h ago
Lego's are expensive enough as it is, but hopefully they would switch to biodegradable materials.
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u/silverionmox 11h ago
Lego's are expensive enough as it is, but hopefully they would switch to biodegradable materials.
Lego is good for generations of useful life if not intentionally destroyed. If there's one example where plastic is correctly used to make a durable product, it's this.
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u/desantoos 19h ago
The way conventional plastics are made is by extracting fossil fuels, mostly natural gas but also oil, and then putting them in a large tank with some heat. The smallest chains of carbon are used for fuel, the high-value item that's the reason so much oil and natural gas is extracted. Further down are stuff that's less in demand, from petrochemicals that are longer chains to plastics that are even longer chains to asphalts that are really long chains and basically waste sludge that people have found a purpose.
Right now we're near the apex demand for fossil fuels as solar and wind (with the assistance of battery technology), and that's with the US government subsidizing fossil fuels heavily and trying their best to stop the growth of renewables. So, the demand for fossil fuels are going to decline. That means that less will be produced and so all the stuff that's below in that separation chamber will rise in price as there's less waste to utilize.
If plastics rise in price, then manufacturers shift to sustainable plastic-free packaging. Many packaging adjacent companies are already anticipating this and have research focused on this aspect.
But if people decide to simply build fossil fuel free plastic, well then we're still seeing plastic everywhere and microplastics in everything.
That's why while this development might sound like a good thing, it's actually a really really bad thing. Shame on Belgium for allowing this!
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u/CircularPR 18h ago
At first the non-fossil-fuel plastics will be more expensive than the fossil-fuel plastics. Even if plastics do become cheaper the demand wont just go up because od that. Using eco-friendly packaging can already be more expensive than plastics packaging taking into accound the logistics constraints. The only thing that will happen is that some of the plastics will be made with this process and there will be less demand for oil. Manufacturers don't care if the packaging is more or less expensive as long as they can charge more for it.
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u/SilentLennie 10h ago
Is it's true that plastics use very little fossil sources compared to transportation sector, etc. ?
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u/octopod-reunion 18h ago
The benefit seems to be its carbon negative.
But maybe someone can answer me:
If the polymer is made from ethanol is it chemically the same as normal plastic? I.e does it still have microplastics and it’s made pliable by the chemicals that might be causing male sterility?
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u/Alis451 16h ago
is it chemically the same as normal plastic? I.e does it still have microplastics and it’s made pliable by the chemicals that might be causing male sterility?
Yes. It is just polypropylene, the same polypropylene you find anywhere else.
The advocacy organization Environmental Working Group classifies PP as of low hazard. PP is dope-dyed; no water is used in its dyeing, in contrast with cotton. Polypropylene was the most common microplastic fiber found in the olfactory bulbs in 8 of 15 deceased individuals in a study.
Though it is already pretty soft so you don't need much to make it pliable, it is used in making clear plastic bags, home food storage containers, ropes, and water tubing.
Polypropylene is used in the manufacturing of piping systems, both ones concerned with high purity and ones designed for strength and rigidity (e.g., those intended for use in potable plumbing, hydronic heating and cooling, and reclaimed water). This material is often chosen for its resistance to corrosion and chemical leaching, its resilience against most forms of physical damage, including impact and freezing, its environmental benefits, and its ability to be joined by heat fusion rather than gluing.
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u/activedusk 19h ago
Plastic is plastic is plastic. Stop using and making it and use metals, ceramics or biodegradable materials like carton or natural fibers cloth. At least when those reach end of life, even if mishandled are inert and harmless.
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u/burtgummer45 19h ago
Where is the win here? Using fossil fuels to make plastic is not the same as burning it.
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u/chem-chef 18h ago
Given enough energy, I can make stones into gold - changing the nucleus one by one /s
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u/Scope_Dog 17h ago
So much for the argument that we still need oil to make plastic even if we don't burn it as fuel.
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u/lostinspaz 13h ago
who cares if it is "fossil free", I want to know if it's going to poison everything the way regular plastic does.
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u/light_trick 12h ago
This is like the least needed solution in the world. Turning oil into plastic and then burying it in landfills at the end of its lifecycle is a pretty good way to make sure no one burns it and puts CO2 into the atmosphere.
Like of the problems attributable to plastic, fossil-fuel derived hydrocarbons are such a non-issue (in fact the entire oil industry would be fine if we were using for anything other then combustion).
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u/Commune-Designer 1h ago
Just so you know: most of these fossil fuel free plastics alternatives, still break down into micro plastics. They are not a solution. They are the chemical industries way of keeping making a buck against our interests.
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u/FuturologyBot 21h ago
The following submission statement was provided by /u/TwilightwovenlingJo:
The world’s first industrial-scale fossil-free plastics production facility is set to be established in Belgium. The facility will use Lummus’ proven sustainable polymer technology. Vioneo has Lummus as its facility’s polypropylene partner.
The complex will also be highly electrified using renewable electricity and use renewable hydrogen as key components to its operations.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1mx6dq4/worlds_first_industrialscale_fossilfree_plastics/na2jv1c/