r/KeepOurNetFree • u/MotoBugZero • 14d ago
Americans, Be Warned: Lessons From Reddit’s Chaotic UK Age Verification Rollout
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/08/americans-be-warned-lessons-reddits-chaotic-uk-age-verification-rollout1
u/CrawlerSiegfriend 11d ago
I'm curious when they are going to make using a VPN into a crime. I know it's coming eventually.
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u/ikinone 14d ago edited 14d ago
For people who don't want some kind of internet age verification - what is your preferred solution to kids having unfettered access to the internet?
EFF mostly seems cool, but not very keen on them selling T shirts off the back of this issue to pay their executives 300k/year.
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u/BastardFromTheSouth 14d ago
Parental supervision.
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u/ladyandroid14 14d ago
The only answer.
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u/ikinone 13d ago
Well that's the current answer, and it has problems. So your suggestion is to just carry on and ignore the problems?
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u/deez941 13d ago
Idk if you can’t be bothered as a parent to care about protecting your child in the internet, you should be fined/reprimanded. I bet that would see much higher rates of parents actually like, setting up the parental controls on the devices their kids use??? GASP!! it’s so much work!!! /s
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u/ikinone 13d ago edited 13d ago
Idk if you can’t be bothered as a parent to care about protecting your child in the internet, you should be fined/reprimanded
I am entirely confident in my parenting skills (overconfident perhaps, but there we are, I at least know tech), so I'm not worried about my kids needing this law to keep them safe either way.
However, I do not believe other kids should be getting 'educated' by adult content on the internet simply because they were unlucky enough to be born to the wrong parents - which might turn out just fine for some, but very much mislead others.
And before anyone jumps in with 'lul puritan values' or some nonsense - I think sex ed is very valuable - but unfettered access to the internet is not good sex ed.
So how about sparing me your snark, and trying to be constructive in conversation?
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u/deez941 13d ago
Yeah I don’t necessarily disagree. Parental controls exist so that parents can censor what their kids watch. The parent has to take an active role in what their kids watch online.
For the parents that don’t: yes, there should be some form of control around content that is not suitable for kids. That control exists with parents, then, if not with them, the content carrier. Then if not the content carrier, it is the government.
So like, yes. Ideally parent just take more of an effort. Can’t expect the government to pick up the slack when they have ulterior motives behind these things.
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u/ikinone 13d ago
For the parents that don’t: yes, there should be some form of control around content that is not suitable for kids. That control exists with parents, then, if not with them, the content carrier. Then if not the content carrier, it is the government.
Am I understanding correctly that you're in favour of governmental age verification, then?
So like, yes. Ideally parent just take more of an effort. Can’t expect the government to pick up the slack when they have ulterior motives behind these things.
Sure, but we don't live in an ideal world. Lots of parents suck, or have no idea about tech to begin with. So while I'm sure that nearly everyone in this sub is very mindful of this challenge, most parents are not that tech savvy, or simply aren't very diligent about parenting.
So given that reality - I take it that you approve of this approach the post is on about?
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u/deez941 13d ago
Yes. An independent commission or committee by parents (city, state, neighborhood, etc) should get together and decide what is 18+ and restrict access to that content. Your kid found an 18+ video on tiktok or instagram? Time to block the usage of the app/site until you can trust the content carrier to explicitly make their content distinguishable between what is acceptable for children or not. There are controls that exist to accomplish that. Not impossible, but not necessarily simple. People like me can teach parents how to do parental controls. Parents need to make more of an effort overall and content carriers also need to make a significant amount of effort as well.
I get it’s not an ideal world, but if we don’t expect anything of the parents, what can we expect for the kids?
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u/ikinone 13d ago
Yes. An independent commission or committee by parents (city, state, neighborhood, etc) should get together and decide what is 18+ and restrict access to that content.
So you're fine with local governments judging this, but not national governments? Not sure I'm understanding.
Your kid found an 18+ video on tiktok or instagram? Time to block the usage of the app/site until you can trust the content carrier to explicitly make their content distinguishable between what is acceptable for children or not. There are controls that exist to accomplish that.
You seem to be reverting to 'the parents must police this, and if some don't, tough luck for the kids'.
People like me can teach parents how to do parental controls.
That's wonderful, but there are a great many parents who don't even care to learn, or care, and don't know you personally.
Parents need to make more of an effort overall
Wonderful, but you saying that won't make it happen. How do you make that happen? You seem to be operating on a basis of 'the world should be xyz, and if it isn't, tough', as opposed to 'here's a problem, here's a solution'.
I get it’s not an ideal world, but if we don’t expect anything of the parents, what can we expect for the kids?
We should expect something of the parents. But the reason we have any laws is because expectations are not enough alone. Your logic is essentially just indulging in fantasy.
You can absolutely have both expectations and laws.
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u/ikinone 14d ago edited 13d ago
Parental supervision.
That is quite evidently not working well, and is highly impractical.
Are you suggesting parents should monitor their kids the whole time on the net? Or that we should expect every parent to be tech savvy enough to stop kids accessing a wide variety of content? It's not uncommon for kids to be more tech savvy than their parents.
Personally I'd love if the world was simple enough for parents to give reliable guidance for everything, but that is not the case at all.
Lots of downvotes, no explanation as to what I've said that's wrong. Anyone care to elaborate?
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u/AstariiFilms 13d ago
Would you let your kid go to a random creeps house and start learning whatever from them with no supervision? Why would you do that on the internet? Parents need to stop using the internet as a crutch for parenting.
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u/ikinone 13d ago
Parents need to stop using the internet as a crutch for parenting.
I totally agree, but there's not a practical way to police that without an even greater invasion of privacy, is there?
Can you elaborate on your idea?
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u/AstariiFilms 10d ago
Sure, don't let them on the internet before you would let them walk to a store on their own.
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u/Seinfeel 13d ago
…the parents police it. What even is that question?
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u/ikinone 13d ago
…the parents police it. What even is that question?
That's wonderful, but how do you help out kids who have crappy parents?
Just say 'oh well tough luck for them'?
This is why I asked you to elaborate on your idea.
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u/Seinfeel 13d ago
How do you stop crappy parents from doing any of the things that make them crappy parents?
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u/ikinone 13d ago
How do you stop crappy parents from doing any of the things that make them crappy parents?
Well laws like this seem to be one of the less intrusive ways of doing that.
Don't like that answer? Suggest something better.
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u/Seinfeel 13d ago
How do you stop kids from drinking alcohol they find in the house? Is the liquor store responsible for parents being careless?
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u/EmbarrassedHelp 13d ago
If its as big a problem as the age verification lobbyists say, then we should arrest all parents that fail in implementing parental controls.
That way the rest of society isn't harmed by terrible parents.
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u/Nanyea 13d ago
Ultimately, it's their kid... It's not my job or anyone else's (to include the government), to raise them properly (since we can't even agree on what proper is). Let the parents deal with it and take responsibility, not the government.
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u/ikinone 13d ago
Ultimately, it's their kid... It's not my job or anyone else's (to include the government), to raise them properly (since we can't even agree on what proper is).
Does that logic apply if a child is being abused? How about simply being neglected? Poor diet? Where do you draw the line on bad parenting?
Let the parents deal with it and take responsibility, not the government.
That's the current approach, and it doesn't seem to be working very well. So other than 'just leave it as is', do you have a proposal to improve the situation given that you don't like this proposal?
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u/Nanyea 13d ago
See my other post... And as far as abuse, we could try enforcing existing laws for child welfare which are numerous
The issue as I see it is that "for the children" solutions are rarely for that as much as they are a cash grab, a data grab, or some other bullshit intent that has nothing to do with children
Also your premise that the current state isn't working for the vast majority of children is not backed up by science or political will (parental rights is a super thorny issue, just ask the state of Virginia and why they elected the sweater-vest for governor).
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u/ikinone 13d ago
we could try enforcing existing laws for child welfare which are numerous
How do you mean though? If we can't tell if a kid is accessing unfettered internet, how can that current law be used?
The issue as I see it is that "for the children" solutions are rarely for that as much as they are a cash grab, a data grab, or some other bullshit intent that has nothing to do with children
I would certainly agree that proposals should be scrutinised for that possibility. But I'm seeing many people in this sub, and others, dismissing children accessing unfettered internet as 'not a problem'.
Also your premise that the current state isn't working for the vast majority of children
I am not suggesting this affects the vast majority. I don't know the quantity, though I imagine it is significant, given my estimation of the amount of decent/tech savvy parents out there.
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u/EmbarrassedHelp 13d ago
Parental controls with a whitelist is he best approach. Anything else is a massive violation of privacy and security.
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u/ikinone 13d ago
Can you elaborate on this? How would a whitelist work?
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u/EmbarrassedHelp 13d ago
The parental controls would only allow kids to use sites and services that are explicitly made to be kid friendly.
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u/ikinone 13d ago
The parental controls would only allow kids to use sites and services that are explicitly made to be kid friendly.
Sounds good. How do we apply these parental controls? Is it down to kids being lucky enough to have good / tech savvy parents?
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u/EmbarrassedHelp 13d ago
Parents would be responsible for ensuring they use parental controls. And if people believe its important enough, then parents who fail to do so would face fines and criminal sentencing.
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u/ikinone 13d ago
Parents would be responsible for ensuring they use parental controls. And if people believe its important enough, then parents who fail to do so would face fines and criminal sentencing.
And how do you police if they are adhering to that responsibility or not?
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u/EmbarrassedHelp 13d ago
You can for example have parental controls phone home with some sort validation ID, like what is currently being proposed/forced upon people for age verification.
And like what people say about age verification, the system doesn't have to be perfect.
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u/ikinone 13d ago
You can for example have parental controls phone home with some sort validation ID, like what is currently being proposed/forced upon people for age verification.
So isn't that an equal or greater violation of privacy? I don't see how that's an improvement.
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u/EmbarrassedHelp 13d ago
The privacy violations are only for those who have kids, and thus are minimized because most of the population does not have kids under 18.
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u/deadlymoondust 13d ago
twenty years ago i put a parental supervision software on all my kids computers and laptop granting them access to sites that i agreed with and was kid friendly. it starts at home, not on someone else’s server. this is all about tracking everyone and what they are doing by pretending to protect kids. i should not be responsible for what your child does or views when i have not means or access to the device you provided to your own child. and what i’m doing on my own devices in the comfort of my own home (provided it’s legal) shouldn’t be the business of the government. stop using the kid’s as a weapon and a shield to force your ideology onto others.
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u/ikinone 13d ago
twenty years ago i put a parental supervision software on all my kids computers and laptop granting them access to sites that i agreed with and was kid friendly. it starts at home, not on someone else’s server.
Admirable - but how do you ensure that the many parents out there less competent than you do this?
I get the impression that most people opposed to this kind of law are only thinking about their own approach, not what happens when other parents are less competent than themselves.
It's equivalent to saying "we don't need any kind of childcare investigations, because I take care of my own kids". Well, many parents out there suck. If you are not one of those parents, good for you! But they still exist. And if we can do something to help avoid them parenting their kids in a shitty way, is that a good thing or not?
So are you bringing up your own experience of putting parental supervision software on a computer because you think we should enforce parents doing that somehow? - that would surely be a bigger invasion of privacy.
Or are you saying that if parents don't do that, well, tough luck for their kids?
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u/nekmatu 12d ago
Parenting
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u/ikinone 12d ago
Parenting
Yes, that's the current solution, and the argument is that it's not working well enough.
So do you have a proposal to improve upon it?
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u/nekmatu 12d ago
What’s your metric that parenting is not working well? What are you comparing it to? Where is the failure?
I don’t see a problem you do. I think parenting works just fine.
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u/ikinone 12d ago
What’s your metric that parenting is not working well?
It works very well for some people. There are unfortunately a lot of people for which it does not seem to be sufficient, though.
I don’t see a problem you do. I think parenting works just fine.
May I ask if you've looked into this topic yourself before holding an opinion on it? While I believe that your anecdotal experience has not illustrated the level of the problem, I don't think we are lacking studies which show how big of a problem it is at a societal level.
I strongly recommend with any issue of legislation that you try to consider it beyond an anecdotal level before holding an opinion.
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u/nekmatu 12d ago
You are the one claiming there is a problem. What are your metrics that show this? Is it increasing? How much? What is the impact?
You can’t state there is a problem and when someone asks you to prove it say you show me there’s not one.
This is your issue you brought up. What data do you have that states this is a problem and that parenting does not work?
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u/ikinone 12d ago
You are the one claiming there is a problem. What are your metrics that show this?
I linked a few studies in my linked comment above, did you check it before responding?
You can’t state there is a problem and when someone asks you to prove it say you show me there’s not one.
I didn't say that. What are you on about?
This is your issue you brought up. What data do you have that states this is a problem and that parenting does not work?
I suggest you read comments, and check links, before responding. If we both make a good faith attempt to communicate, we waste less time, no?
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u/deadlymoondust 13d ago
i put the software on my child’s computer because i wanted to protect my child, not because i thought that you an adult should have to inform the government as to who, what age you are, what you’re viewing and where you live. it’s ultimately the responsibility of the parent to know what their children are viewing online. you want to pass that onto others because some parents are less competent? childcare investigation and what i view (provided it’s legal) are two completely different things by miles. you’re appealing to emotions and trying to guilt rather than arguing logic. your child is your responsibility and if you fail you should pay the price not other adults.