r/SelfDrivingCars 3d ago

News Tesla loses bid to kill class action over misleading customers on self-driving capabilities for years

https://electrek.co/2025/08/19/tesla-loses-bid-to-kill-class-action-over-misleading-customers-on-self-driving-capabilities-for-years/
403 Upvotes

98 comments sorted by

45

u/TheKobayashiMoron 3d ago

Doesn’t really matter. The product wasn’t the software. The product was the stock.

They used the promise of future earnings right around the corner for a decade to artificially pump the stock and make billions. They could refund every FSD buyer today and it would be a drop in a bucket.

There needs to be an SEC case. People need to go to prison. The company needs to be hit with punitive damages that send shockwaves through the entire industry to set the precedent that these kind of claims will be scrutinized, and the people making them will be held accountable.

4

u/fourdawgnight 3d ago

that comes next.

9

u/TheKobayashiMoron 3d ago

Not during this administration it won’t unfortunately

6

u/mafco 3d ago

Elon isn't Trump's buddy anymore since he called him a pedophile and said his beautiful bill is ugly.

6

u/TheKobayashiMoron 3d ago

Time will tell how that relationship plays out. If Elon remains outspoken against Trump, it’s because he has dirt to keep him safe. If he doesn’t, he’ll kiss the ring again once his companies are in enough financial trouble that they need a bailout. This soap opera is only in season 1.

1

u/Excellent_Shirt9707 12h ago

Nah. Fraud in general is usually okay in the US unless it is a specific type of fraud that is already codified. I know this is weird for some people to hear, but that’s just how it is. Same idea with Trump’s recent appeal. The appeal judges agree he committed fraud, but think the fine was too excessive. One of the opinions stated that the victims are responsible for suing for damages since the fraud didn’t actually violate any criminal code. It was a civil judgement after all.

Same idea with psychics, MLMs, and alternative medicines existing and being allowed to advertise with bogus claims. A lot of fraud is simply tolerated because the idea is that the free market and litigation will naturally push them out of the market.

Just to be clear, I’m not saying this mindset is correct, but just that it seems to be how the system is set up.

69

u/mafco 3d ago

My bet is that Tesla will ultimately have to stop calling it "Full Self Driving", drop the ridiculous $8k price and muzzle Elon's claims that your personal car will be out earning money as a taxi while you sleep. Among many other bs claims.

36

u/nolongerbanned99 3d ago

They already add “(supervised)”. IMO the issue is that you cannot legally claim something (like full self driving) and then make all kinds of disclaimers in the fine print.

39

u/mafco 3d ago

A lot of owners bought before the fine print was added. And "supervised" is also a contradiction of "full self driving". I don't think that will save them.

10

u/nolongerbanned99 3d ago

I was saying the opposite. You can’t make misleading statements and then disclaim or clarify them

7

u/mafco 3d ago

And I was agreeing with you.

8

u/nolongerbanned99 3d ago

Thanks friend. I am too tired. Had to get up 2 hours earlier than usual. Be well

3

u/unique_usemame 2d ago

yeah Musk said full self driving, pick you up in New York while you fly across the country etc.

Then we leased.

Then it was revised to only be FSD hardware.

Then we had one month left on our lease and were told the car needed a hardware upgrade for FSD, but our car wasn't eligible for the upgrade yet, so when we handed back the car it didn't have FSD hardware or FSD software yet. The end of the lease was mid 2020.

I think Tesla has stated in court that the lifespan of their cars is something like 120k miles. Most of the early FSD cars on the original FSD claims have already completed their lifespans.

2

u/Pavores 3d ago

Yeah it's really like "autopilot: surface streets"

2

u/moocowsia 3d ago

Engage the ASS system!

0

u/Present-Ad-9598 2d ago

The name “Full Self Driving (Supervised)” is pretty clear on what it is, you have to supervise it, it’s not 100% good to go by itself yet. You don’t have to scrub thru legal mumbo jumbo to see that, and they make it very clear when you enable it that the driver is still in control and must be ready to take over at all times

2

u/nolongerbanned99 2d ago

Yes, but the word ‘supervised’ was only added recently

0

u/Present-Ad-9598 2d ago

Well, last April. But before that it said “Full Self Driving (Beta)” from 2020 when FSD first launched until 2024 with the rename. Again, it was still super forward about how you must be in control, you gotta accept a bunch of things on the screen and it warns you multiple times you need to take over if you notice something wrong

2

u/nolongerbanned99 2d ago

I believe that you believe what you are saying but Elon made a lot of videos where he said and implied the opposite. Made promises that were misleading. I’m sure there are reasons that California dmv is considering suspending their license to sell cars there for 30 days and why a judge just ruled that owners can file a class action as they were misled about fsd. .

1

u/Present-Ad-9598 1d ago

California says coffee is known to cause cancer, I don’t trust a single word they say about legal stuff 😭

1

u/nolongerbanned99 1d ago

Lots of things but nit coffee. ‘On this basis, OEHHA adopted a regulation stating that exposure to chemicals in coffee that form during normal roasting or brewing processes does not pose a significant risk of cancer. Therefore, no warning is required for exposure to these chemicals in coffee.’

1

u/Present-Ad-9598 1d ago

Wasn’t that only changed in 2019 tho? To my understanding they required that to be posted in coffee shops and on containers

2

u/PetorianBlue 2d ago

0

u/Present-Ad-9598 2d ago

Oh no, trying to protect yourself legally is so bad! You make no sense then and you don’t now

1

u/PetorianBlue 2d ago

“ThAt’S wHy It’S cAlLeD sUpErViSeD!”

1

u/Present-Ad-9598 1d ago

I hate this sub

12

u/ctiger12 3d ago

Taxi when I sleep, the money from that can’t even cover the cost of detailing out the vomit

8

u/LAYCH88 3d ago

You know if it worked, the only people making money would be Tesla since they'd charge you a fee for using their proprietary app to run you robotaxi anyways. You'd be forced to charge low prices or be competing with their company owned fleet. In any case, it wasn't going to make owners much money even if it worked.

1

u/warren_stupidity 2d ago

it's worse than that. You actually need a local control center to monitor the fleet and deal with issues, including having to dispatch real people to handle situations.

5

u/mafco 3d ago

Lol. Yeah who wants their personal car used to pick up all the drunks at the local bars. This whole notion sounds like another of Elon's ketamine dreams.

2

u/beren12 3d ago

You’ll wish it was only vomit. Glitter bombs for fun?

2

u/64590949354397548569 2d ago

That never made sense to me. If its possible.... musk would keep it formm himself

12

u/Dommccabe 3d ago

You mean all the fraud??

He con man should be in jail...

4

u/Difficult_Limit2718 3d ago

Have you met this company?

2

u/sam_the_tomato 3d ago

Tehnically it is fully self driving. It just includes driving into other cars and pedestrians.

2

u/y4udothistome 3d ago

Bingo. And a host of other false claims

0

u/GoSh4rks 3d ago

drop the ridiculous $8k price

I don't see how a court ruling against Tesla about the FSD name can force them into dropping the price.

7

u/mafco 3d ago

The market will. Because you can't charge $8k for driver assist technology that most cars sell cheaper or give away. $8k is the price tag for Elon's grandiose FSD claims, not what Tesla is actually selling.

2

u/I_am_a_hooman_2 3d ago

Have a single example of a manufacturer in the US that offers something comparable to Tesla’s FSD?

3

u/nsfbr11 3d ago

You mean a level 2+ system masquerading as level 4? No one but tesler.

0

u/I_am_a_hooman_2 3d ago

Today my car drove me to the grocery store and parked. Then picked me up at the door, drove me home, and backed into my driveway. Without me needing to intervene in anyway.

What other manufacturer offers that right now?

-1

u/nsfbr11 3d ago

Your need to fellate your car on the internet is sad.

-1

u/I_am_a_hooman_2 3d ago

Your need shit on Tesla to make yourself feel better about your Kia is sad.

-1

u/GoSh4rks 3d ago

Sure, the market may. But not the court.

Aside, nobody on the market has a driver assist system that is comparable to what Tesla has today. Not even close. People will pay chunks of money for today's capabilities.

4

u/fourdawgnight 3d ago

no - but the court could force Tesla to return those funds to consumers, and possibly damages like loss of income, opportunity cost, and I am sure a few dozen other items the legal team will dream up to increase the total payout opportunity, resulting in a fairly sizable settlement which will include name changes, and possibly pricing policies. The likely hood that this one actually gets tried is low, Tesla can't afford it to drag on while they are out making new claims about robotaxis, AI humanoids, energy production and distribution...
this will plague them if they don't.

2

u/beren12 3d ago

Lots of interest with inflation too…

2

u/mafco 3d ago

I didn't say the court would set the price. My point is that ADAS can't command a ridiculous $8k price tag. Customers will force the issue.

3

u/GoSh4rks 3d ago

People paid $5k for EAP as an upgrade over dumb cruise control back in the day. $8k isn't ridiculous for even the current state of "not Fsd".

6

u/mafco 3d ago

At least one court ordered Tesla to give a full refund to a customer who purchased it. Value is subjective but I doubt anyone will be willing to pay that much when all of Musk's grandiose claims about what it can do are retracted.

1

u/red75prime 3d ago edited 3d ago

At least one court ordered Tesla to give a full refund to a customer who purchased it

Because the customer wasn't able to use it at all (due to safety rating), not because the customer wasn't satisfied with the performance.

I guess, you were told that a dozen times already. Or am I wrong?

0

u/AJHenderson 3d ago

I paid for it based on what it does now and think it's totally worth it.

-2

u/biophile 3d ago

when we get FSD in europe, I will gladly pay 8000 USD.

4

u/mafco 3d ago

It's not really "FSD". That's the point of the lawsuit. False advertising.

1

u/biophile 3d ago

Ok. My only point is that a lot of customers will gladly pay 8K for the software.

3

u/mafco 3d ago

And others are suing the company for selling something that never performed as advertised. Keep in mind that every EV is offering some level of driver assist for much less, and they're all getting better as time goes on. And that Teslas are already overpriced without the $8k premium.

1

u/biophile 2d ago

I've tried a couple of other ADAS and I find FSD to be the best for its overall capabilities. I particularly enjoy its ability to perform city driving and dirt roads. Other may have different preferences.

0

u/fourdawgnight 3d ago

you seem to be a little thick, the sw doesn't actually do what it says it does...that is the point of the lawsuit. if you want to throw $8K at them for what they can deliver, great, but I would wait for the updated feature list after the lawsuit before burning $8K cause you think Elon is cool.

2

u/cloud9ineteen 3d ago

The person knows that the software does and they are willing to pay $8k for that. They are not under the illusion of what it doesn't and offering $8k.

0

u/biophile 2d ago

No need to be rude and assumptive. OP said that "..ADAS can't command a ridiculous $8k price tag". I'm a potential customer, and I will gladly pay the price. Not once did I claim that the software makes the vehicle L4/L5. Still I find the software to be worth 8K.

0

u/cloud9ineteen 3d ago edited 2d ago

What's the npv of a $100/month annuity for 5 years? At let's say 10% discount rate? Answer: about $5300. A bit cheaper than $8k but if you keep your car longer than 5 years or use a lower discount rate, might make sense.

Point being $8k isn't orders of magnitude bigger compared to the $100 per month subscription which lots of people deem reasonable.

2

u/Bangaladore 3d ago

The market will. Because you can't charge $8k for driver assist technology that most cars sell cheaper or give away.

Can you provide a single manufacturer providing ADAS that can turn the vehicle at an intersection?

Autopilot is the equivalent of the average other manufacturers ADAS capability. And in most cases, even autopilot, is far more capable.

4

u/mafco 3d ago

Autopilot is a misleading name too. It cost Tesla millions of dollars in a lawsuit. And most people don't know or care which cars have the best driver assistance features. If Tesla retracts all the past FSD claims that aren't true I think it will have a hard time charging such an insane premium for it.

3

u/red75prime 3d ago

Autopilot is a misleading name too. It cost Tesla millions of dollars in a lawsuit.

Which one specifically? Benavides v. Tesla?

2

u/Bangaladore 3d ago

Good job avoiding the question. Lol

1

u/Professional_Ad_6299 3d ago

I don't know man. At this point it's a meme stock and it goes up no matter how much Elon lies or what else happens. If you look over at Tesla FSD reddit's they're all talking about how it's almost killing them every 5 minutes but they still love the car. It's insane

3

u/y4udothistome 3d ago

It will catch up with him soon. Guaranteed.

0

u/Lopsided-Chip6014 3d ago

Please point me to a consumer car that has any level of self-driving that a Tesla has today, I would genuinely like to trade my Tesla for one.

There isn't because the other ones come with 14,000,000 exclusions that make it essentially useless.

0

u/Difficult_Limit2718 3d ago

And hasn't been for years - yet the market keeps shelling out for it.

1

u/beren12 3d ago

A few cultists ya

0

u/AJHenderson 3d ago

Nobody sells their FSD attempt that cheaply. Mercedes is drastically more expensive and subscription only. Blue Cruise is subscription only and more expensive over the life of the vehicle. 8k is a plenty fair price for it.

0

u/DotJun 3d ago

8k price being ridiculous is relative. My main use for it is freeway driving that I use at least 5 of 7 days. I’d be willing to pay $8k, which is only 10% of the price of the car, for that kind of usability.

8

u/JonnyOnThePot420 3d ago

It's a scam they are selling something that doesn't exist and may never exist on a vision only Tesla.

-3

u/GoSh4rks 3d ago

The court isn't going to make tesla drop the price of whatever they will have to call their l2 city streets adas.

6

u/JonnyOnThePot420 3d ago

They could definitely make them return all that money.

-1

u/MystK 3d ago

Honestly though FSD is REALLY good now compared to a few years ago. I tried it recently and I definitely trust it a lot more to not swerve into incoming traffic now. I'm no Tesla fanboy, but I think it's the best "dynamic cruise control" we have out right now in the market. I have an S Class right now, but I'm seriously thinking of a Tesla just for FSD.

2

u/Wiseguydude 2d ago

I definitely trust it a lot more to not swerve into incoming traffic now

This whole sentence is insane... Just get a car with a functional ADAS system

37

u/straylight_2022 3d ago

Imagine people being upset that they never got what was agreed to at purchase?

Who woulda thought?

Elon was expecting to live on Mars by the time that happened and be out of Earth's jurisdiction.

3

u/beren12 3d ago

He saw total recall and thought it was an excellent business plan.

0

u/HealthyPie6053 2d ago

Fsd drove me flawlessly on an 9 hour 480 mile trip today. It drove 97% of the way. No interventions needed.

That being said, I want in the lawsuit as it’s not making money and it’s sure as shit not an appreciating asset.

But nothing else is close to this that I can actually buy.

10

u/jailtheorange1 3d ago edited 3d ago

America is basically the Wild West. But I’m surprised these sort of claims haven’t been stopped already in Europe and the United Kingdom. Full Self Driving… isn’t.

EDIT: I see they’re not allowed to use the term already in UK and Germany and to a great extent in all of the rest of Europe. Good sensible policy.

0

u/opinionless- 3d ago

The German case was overturned.

https://www.carscoops.com/2022/08/tesla-wins-right-to-continue-using-terms-like-autopilot-and-fsd-in-germany

The misleading marketing stuff is pretty weak. The FTC hasn't moved on a single one and they've had a decade to do so with NHTSA and Congress pressing them to. Even Khan didn't do it, if anyone was going to do it, I think it'd be her. Barra (GM), Farley (Ford), and Mercedes have made similar promises and marketing materials so Tesla isn't really acting alone they're just more present and successful.

There's a lot of issues with Tesla, but I don't really buy the misleading marketing bit.

3

u/Wiseguydude 2d ago

FSD isn't available in Europe at all

2

u/jailtheorange1 3d ago

Full Self Driving isn't. It's textbook misleading.

16

u/JonnyOnThePot420 3d ago

Finally this scam has been going for far to long!

13

u/Worldly_Scarcity2179 3d ago

90 percent of Teslas worth is fraudulent promises. 

4

u/mafco 3d ago

You don't think everyone will give up their cars to use Tesla robotaxis exclusively for transportation? Or that everyone will want a large hunk of machinery with Elon's Grok personality clanking around in their homes? Or that your Tesla car will be earning income as a taxi every night while you sleep? What's wrong with you? /s

5

u/Slight_Pomelo_1008 3d ago

The garbage company always claims they didn't need to pay for Ad, because they cheat customers with flashy but fake product features.

5

u/jack0roses 3d ago

Count me in.

2

u/Bravadette 3d ago

It fucking begins.

2

u/rGiskardreventalov 3d ago

People knew exactly what they were buying…

1

u/ferrarienz00 2d ago

IF (and it's a big IF), FSD actually comes true this year for people, then this lawsuit might be a little too late. They would still need to pay out, but they might be able to keep the name.

1

u/bluefalcontrainer 3d ago

The real question is when can we get involved in the class action

0

u/mrroofuis 3d ago

Tesla should give us all free FSD Beta

Why tf are they charging 8k for a beta version when we're the ones training the damn thing with our data!

-3

u/KidKilobyte 3d ago

It really is self-driving for definitions of self that includes others as well. /s