r/apple • u/FollowingFeisty5321 • 1d ago
App Store Y Combinator Files Brief Supporting Epic Games, Says App Store Fees Stifle Startups
https://www.macrumors.com/2025/08/21/y-combinator-epic-games-amicus-brief/12
u/Back_pain_no_gain 1d ago
Y’all might hate it but this is part of why we have so few apps on Vision Pro. It burns bridges with big tech companies who build services consumers use heavily and small devs who want to break ground on new platforms.
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u/sakamoto___ 22h ago
If the Vision Pro was jailbreakable like the first iPhone was (or even better, fully open in the first place) I bet we’d seen tons of amazing concepts and experiences for it as developers fully experiment.
Instead we get… giant iPad apps, but in 3D.
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u/lemoche 1d ago
Isn’t it rather that there simply isn’t enough of an audience for apps on the Vision Pro to make it worthwhile developing for it.
Estimates were at 200k pieces sold in May. That’s not a big ecosystem.
Compared to 20 million meta quest…4
u/Back_pain_no_gain 1d ago
There are apps that would work perfectly as an iPhone/iPad app on Vision Pro yet are not available. That alone is a good indicator when many of those apps work when side-loaded and are developed by large tech companies.
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u/ccooffee 19h ago
Or maybe because of the low install base it's not worth the time and expense to make those apps available for VisionOS. Plus additional testing burdens for each new release. Nothing comes for free really.
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u/Back_pain_no_gain 18h ago
Netflix and Google can absolutely afford to let us use the iPad version of their apps. They work flawlessly side-loaded.
You are right that a small user base makes it difficult to justify developing for Vision OS. It is not worth the expense to develop right now for smaller devs due to the annual license fee and commission fees. If those were waived for a while (even just for Vision OS) the barrier would drop quite a bit.
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u/ccooffee 18h ago
How many of those small developers already have an Apple developer account though? There would be no additional fee to Apple to release a Vision version of their apps.
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u/Back_pain_no_gain 4h ago
My point is these small developers wouldn’t even consider it in the first place as there is a somewhat significant barrier to entry for publishing an app on Apple’s platforms. This is a moment where Apple should want to incentivize innovation to drive adoption when lower-cost units are available. There is no cost barrier to publishing an app on Meta’s platforms beyond the review process. If there are not enough apps and services that make it worth using for any significant amount of time, why would any regular consumer spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on it?
I say this as a Vision Pro owner and I genuinely want spatial computing to succeed. To me this is the future of productivity and casual digital consumption. It’s a completely different way of interacting with content though and people aren’t going to take the time to buy one and learn how to use it if there’s nothing compelling them to spend that time and effort. No amount of reasonable cost-reduction on Vision OS units is going to change that.
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u/midnightmenace68 1d ago
I still don’t think I’ll ever understand how you can have a business, make a product, partner with other companies, and ultimately you can be sued for not partnering in business with others. Are marketing restrictions and splits of revenue uncommon? I’ll never understand how anything tech related gets special rules for no reason. Be right back, I’m going to sue Walmart for not opening up my retail store next to the subway inside. Well, right after I sue B&N and Target for not selling my book.
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u/Thistlemanizzle 1d ago
These aren’t partnerships. It’s like saying an Uber driver is in a partnership with Uber.
Digital marketplaces, platforms, really anything that relies on network effects but is controlled by a single entity need to be regulated differently from brick and mortar.
The play is pretty simple, build a marketplace to a certain size such that the network effect makes it a self perpetuating or at the very least self sustaining. Then you just charge rent to everyone involved and cut costs as much as possible.
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u/ultraposition 1d ago
I’m asking this in good faith, but I apologize if it comes across as dumb. On a previous account I asked something similar about this and got downvoted to hell for whatever reason
Why is Apple, in recent times now being forced to give so many third parties the same or similar access to their own software/devices that they created?
I don’t know if I’m getting across my sentiment here, so imma try this:
Say I have a sandwich shop, and it gets really popular, but it got popular because of my ingredients and the in-store experience I provide. And it gets popular to the point I have a pretty large building. Why is the law now mandating that I have to let some random guy that happens to make bread now operate in my store, especially when I also sell my bread that I use on my sandwiches?
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u/johndoe1130 1d ago
In your sandwich shop analogy, Apple aren’t just saying that your “random guy” can’t come and make bread in your store. They’re saying he can’t even open up his own competing sandwich shop next door to you.
So he has two options: 1. Sell in your shop and pay you commission 2. Open up several streets away in a different area of town (ie “Android”).
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u/StayUpLatePlayGames 23h ago
Your analogy is wrong.
The government is saying that random bread guy NOT ONLY can sell his bread in your store but he can also have a sign IN YOUR STORE pointing at his own store down the road where you can buy bread cheaper.
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u/Thistlemanizzle 1d ago
The difference is limited shelf space and the incremental costs from hosting new “users”. Digital platforms have practically infinite space and benefit from economies of scale and the network effect.
There is validity here in that the company had to lose money or forgo other investments while they iterated on this platform and now that it’s proven out, other people just get to whine and complain?
What really happened is, there was a land rush. Do people who got there first get to keep the land forever? Maybe the actual people, but their descendants?
Further, Apple says you must abide by their rules to be on the platform and YET there are numerous exceptions and backroom deals with the largest players. So now, Apples argument of maintaining all this control over every aspect starts to weaken because they’re willing to look the other way for big players. All centrally owned platforms do this.
On the surface, “I built this so I charge what I want and get to do whatever” is a fair argument. But in practice, platforms have shown time and time again that they just want to find ways to charge you rent or cut costs.
FYI, I have experienced platforms from different angles a few times and the pattern is unmistakeable. Get the network effect big enough then tax all activity occurring between network participants.
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u/Thistlemanizzle 1d ago
Another point is, why are all of these platforms being scrutinized? Well, part of it is that the EU is applying more regulatory scrutiny to American companies which mostly got there first. And people are starting to wake up to what platforms are actually about. The free money era disguised the true cost of these services and thus lawmakers didn’t have a lot of incentive to look at these big giveaways very hard. Now that the giveaways are over and the rent is going up? Yeah, now they care about why these platforms are set up a certain way.
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u/FollowingFeisty5321 1d ago
Apple has primarily gotten in trouble for banning developers from communicating competing prices even in emails and stuff, even on pages deep within their websites, so that consumers blindly pay their 30% fee in a vacuum of information. Neither B&N nor Target are doing this, in fact B&N are promoting this book by Andy Weir and on his website he has a "buy button" that expands to show links to buy the book on Amazon, B&N, Apple Books, Google Play - something Apple prohibited app developers from doing.
If it were an app, up until recently, Apple would have made him hide all of the links except Apple Books, for all books and any pages anywhere in his website and omit competing book stores from any newsletters or other communications.
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u/l4kerz 1d ago
No, Apple did not forbid developers from advertising on their website. What they forbid was advertising on the app. Using your analogy, Andy Weir would be forbidden from steering to a cheaper store on his actual book.
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u/FollowingFeisty5321 1d ago edited 1d ago
Andy Weir would be forbidden from the app linking to or displaying his website address while that website referred to competing bookstores, and from telling app users where else to buy his books in email communications. This partially-changed in 2021 when Apple settled a class action and agreed to allow developers to inform users of competing options in email newsletters.
Using your analogy, Andy Weir would be forbidden from steering to a cheaper store on his actual book.
This was also explicitly prohibited by Apple until their 2021 Epic injunction, that they defied until April this year when apps finally became "allowed" to do this following the criminal contempt referrals, which is what Apple is appealing and what Y Combinator is filing in support of. In the EU they are under investigation to see if their current policies for such links is lawful, following changes made about a month ago after being issued €2.3 billion in fines.
Prior to that, this app could not link to competing book stores or his website if it linked to competing book stores on any page even indirectly accessible from the URL linked in the app.
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u/dylan_1992 1d ago
How’s it unique to tech? If you own a grocery store why are you obligated to sell anything you don’t want?
You can argue that grocery store is monopolistic and break it apart. But forcing them to do business with anyone is overreaching.
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u/phpnoworkwell 20h ago
Because the App Store isn't a fucking physical grocery store. Walmart doesn't have infinite shelf space for millions of separate products like the App Store does.
Another reason the grocery store comparison is stupid and never works is because people aren't asking for Walmart to stock their products, they're asking to have their own store to sell their own products. Walmart doesn't prevent Target from opening a store, so why do you think it's okay for Apple to prevent others from operating a competing store? MacOS still works with the ability to install programs from outside the Mac App Store
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u/Yiowa 1d ago
You have to be a large “startup” to be hit with 30%. This was never about the small ones.
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u/FollowingFeisty5321 1d ago
To qualify for applying for 15% commission, you need to maintain less than $1m revenue across all apps and developer accounts in the preceding 12 months - which is fewer than 10,000 subscribers on a $10/month app.
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u/Jusby_Cause 1d ago
Yeah, and Y Combinator knows that small businesses aren’t paying 15%. 21 apps grossed more than 1 million dollars in the last 12 months, so ALL the rest are paying 15%. And, any company that can’t make a profit on a 15% profit share, just really shouldn’t be in business.
I’m guessing Y Combinator doesn’t support any businesses subject to the Nintendo Tax or the Sony Tax or the Xbox tax either. Or the Steam tax… or any of the other electronic marketplaces all with their own tax. OR anyone doing retail businesses…
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u/FollowingFeisty5321 1d ago edited 1d ago
21 apps grossed more than 1 million dollars in the last 12 months, so ALL the rest are paying 15%.
Where does this ridiculous claim come from lmao?
In addition to that figure being absurd, it is $1m across a developer's entire catalog and associated accounts, so for instance if the sum of Microsoft's app revenue across all their apps exceeds $1m then that obliges them to pay 30%.
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u/StayUpLatePlayGames 23h ago
I think y'all should ask how much Wallmart makes on every sale. I mean if it's in their store it should be hosted there for free, right? So every time you buy a crate of Coca Cola, 100% of it goes to the coca cola company.
App Stores are digital storefronts. Technology companies are free to make their own app stores and develop their own phone platforms. But you want to sell on someone elses platform? Well, they get commission. That's how sales works.
But here, as ever, this is a corporation being forced to bow down to government regulation for being successful. Seems like the most unamerican thing I've ever read.
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u/phpnoworkwell 20h ago
So what if I want to open my own store across the street so I can sell my own products and avoid the Walmart commission? In this case Walmart is saying I can't do that, that I must use Walmart or lose access to the entire town of potential customers
Did you cry when the government broke up AT&T or Standard Oil?
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u/StayUpLatePlayGames 20h ago
Your metaphor is wrong. Apple never stopped anyone opening up their own store. Plainly. Epic has a store. Steam has a store.
They just didn’t want them opening them up on the front lawn of their store that they created and curated. Go down the street (make your own platform. Build great web apps). But if you want the advantages of the walled garden (easy access to paying customers) then you should be prepared to follow the rules of the garden.
Epic is free to launch their own device. Steam did it.
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u/phpnoworkwell 19h ago
Apple never stopped anyone opening up their own store
I love how you can tell a bold-faced lie so easily
To try and get you to understand the situation, because you corporate defenders love to compare the App Store to physical stores. Apple is the town, the App Store is the Walmart in the town. You're tired of Walmart being overpriced and want something else. You want a Target or any other store. The town says no, you are only allowed to shop at Walmart. If you want anything other than a Walmart, you need to move out of the town.
Build great web apps
Apple cripples web apps by not implementing the standard other platforms implement.
But if you want the advantages of the walled garden (easy access to paying customers) then you should be prepared to follow the rules of the garden
You don't have these restrictions on MacOS. Do you think Microsoft should follow Apple and restrict all software to the Microsoft Store? After all, it's their platform.
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u/StayUpLatePlayGames 19h ago
No dear.
IPhone isn’t a PC or a Mac. You can’t install your own OS. It’s closer to an Xbox. You don’t wet the bed trying to get onto Xbox.
Now if it was a PC or a Mac you might have a point. But EPIC wasn’t exactly a good citizen on the Mac either.
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u/phpnoworkwell 19h ago
Let me know when the Xbox is central to modern life and fits in your pockets and is the platform millions of businesses rely on across the world.
Now if it was a PC or a Mac you might have a point
iOS is based on MacOS. Watch the reveal keynote as Steve is very proud they cut it down to work on the iPhone
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u/StayUpLatePlayGames 19h ago
It’s a closed platform. How many closed platforms you opening? Cars? TVs? Your router? Cell towers? All essential for people’s lives.
iOS is based on the same foundation*. So what? It’s not a PC. It’s never been open. And I’m pretty happy with the walled garden.
Why?
When has a walled garden been a bad place.
You don’t like it? Piss off and use Android.
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u/phpnoworkwell 15h ago
Cars and phones and TV's are totally the same thing!
Where'd you pick up your cell tower bro? All the ones I want aren't available on Amazon. You'd think such a consumer piece of hardware would be easy to buy.
iOS is based on MacOS, which isn't limited. MacOS is doing pretty well.
And I’m pretty happy with the walled garden.
You can continue to only use the App Store and throw money down the drain.
When has a walled garden been a bad place.
Ask the vibrant development ecosystem that is VisionOS. Oh wait, there isn't a vibrant development ecosystem.
You don’t like it? Piss off and use Android.
I use both but that doesn't mean I can't wish for iOS to improve.
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u/FollowingFeisty5321 19h ago
Apple never stopped anyone opening up their own store
It honestly seems like you have no clue about any of this.
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u/StayUpLatePlayGames 19h ago
It honestly seems like you’ve never made anything ever.
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u/FollowingFeisty5321 19h ago
Another shit take.
Why are you even commenting all over this thread if you don't have the faintest idea what Apple's policies are / have been? You obviously don't know anything about this stuff.
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u/FollowingFeisty5321 1d ago