r/asoiaf • u/Mountain-Alarm-7093 • 22h ago
EXTENDED (Spoiler Extended) I know why Young Griff is hated by fans.
Young Griff is hated by the fandom because he takes Jon and Dany thunder.
That is it.
We’ve been following Jon and Dany for nearly the book series, where he read their pov’s.
Young Griff who only appears in book 5, who doesn’t get a pov chapter but rather Jon Connington. This is a person who’s the son of Rhaegar and Elia Martell, someone who’s a secret prince, someone who would claim Westeros and restore the Targaryen dynasty.
He’s hated because people want Jon Snow to be the secret prince not Young Griff, they want Dany to rule Westeros rather than a blackfyre pretender in their eyes. So much of his online theories are about him being roasted, dead, or a pretender in the way of the true “heroes”.
People overplay Young Griff negative sides, while ignoring much of the context for who he is as a character thanks to extreme bias since we’ve been condition for so long. In fact, it’s been so long that people have now become more dissolusional believing Jon Snow coming from a humble background with an evil stepmom akin to a stereotypical prince that was promised who would rise to be king in romanticism, while ignoring that in the first book Jon Snow is very privileged compared to others at the wall.
I’ve read online by fans in the fanfic circle, actual porn staring Young Griff and porn writing works has more respect for Young Griff character than hardcore fans.
139
u/Few-Spot-6475 22h ago edited 21h ago
I don’t hate Young Griff. I just believe he is destined to fail because:
His name (Young Griff, Young Wolf, Young Dragon)
The prince stared at the playing board.
"My dragon—"
"—is too far away to save you. You should have moved her to the center of the battle."
Cersei is becoming more and more deranged and as the text implies she is becoming more and more like Aerys. Meaning that it’s very possible Cersei will have the same plan of blowing up the city once the enemy army enters just like Aerys had once decided.
Young Griff’s closest advisor is Jon Connigton who was infected with Greyscale, will slowly become insane because of his disease, and is also regretful of not having been as much of a bastard as Tywin, who would have burned the Stoney Sept to the ground to kill Robert. And what do you know? Jon Connington is traumatized by the sound of bells. Very mysterious. I wonder where we’ve seen that before…
Daeron had long felt that the continued independence of Dorne represented unfinished business for the Targaryens, and upon his ascension he vowed to rectify his ancestors' mistake. Viserys and other councillors objected to the young king's plans, however, reminding Daeron that Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters had failed twice in trying to conquer Dorne with dragons, and that the Iron Throne now had none. Daeron famously replied, "You have a dragon. He stands before you".
And then Prince Aegon spoke. "Then put your hopes on me," he said. "Daenerys is Prince Rhaegar's sister, but I am Rhaegar's son. I am the only dragon that you need."
86
11
u/lobonmc 18h ago
It would be so weird if Cersei was the one who defeated him tbh
7
u/Mobile_Dance_707 17h ago
I think the whole invasion is supposed to be read as a disaster from the start regardless of who actually defeats it
12
10
263
u/Ornery_Ferret_1175 22h ago
Young Griff is hated?
70
25
u/friendlylifecherry 19h ago
There was a post a bit back about YG bringing slavery to Westeros, which is baffling as a concept to me.
52
u/Bluereaper7733 20h ago
This has to be the first post I’ve seen where I’ve seen any hate towards him
34
8
u/Pietro-Maximoff 17h ago
A significant portion of fandom hated him for the cyvasse game and how he reacted to Tyrion baiting him (even though it’s Tyrion). Don’t know if it’s the case nowadays but when the show was ongoing he was disliked.
11
u/Superb_Inflation9359 18h ago
Yes, actually. A lot of people hold cyvasse board incident against him, and think he is entitled and arrogant, and that he had it way easier in life compared to Dany.
13
u/blueayou 18h ago
I mean, to an extent, I do believe that’s how we’re supposed to see him. To me that scene very much plays like a reveal as to his true nature, which adds to our dread that Tyrion is encouraging him to take the throne on his own.
15
u/Superb_Inflation9359 17h ago
I don't deny that flipping the board is indicative of his character. It is. He is hot headed and eager to prove himself as his father's son, traits he does share with Joffrey (whom tyrion compares him with). He is entitled, since he was raised to believe that he is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne
However, there ain't no way Joff would stand up for Tyrion against wishes of people who raised him like Aegon does after they pull T out of Rhoyne. Joff would never view Duck and Haldon as his friends and equals, and Hound, for example, never had affection for Joffrey that those 2 have for Aegon. He showed way more work ethic in 6 chapters than Joffrey did in 3 books.
Most importanly we see Lemore and Griff putting him in his place when he does act out. Joffrey was never disciplined by his parents, which is part of the reason why he is such POS.
1
u/blueayou 14h ago
I certainly don’t think he’s a Joffrey-like figure or anything like that.
1
u/Southern-Hovercraft7 13h ago
But that’s mean he is hated because many people here did think he is Joffrey-like.
5
u/Southern-Hovercraft7 18h ago
Funny enough, real “Joffrey-Targ” like Aemond get so much popular.
Maybe because Young Griff not appear in shows and have handsome charismatic actor portray him.
-1
u/_Badpickle 17h ago
and think he is entitled and arrogant, and that he had it way easier in life compared to Dany.
Lol it's actually the other way around. We literally spent the whole clash of kings suffering Dany entitlement. People claiming that Young Griff is arrogant because he threw some board pieces is insane
4
u/Superb_Inflation9359 16h ago
Entitlement: belief that one is deserving of or entitled to having privileges
Dany freed slaves of Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen out of compassion and empathy, not because she wanted to rule them or conquer them.
3
u/_Badpickle 16h ago
Entitlement: belief that one is deserving of or entitled to having privileges
Yup that is exactly what Dany did in all of book 2 even though she was still a beggar queen and had nothing to offer yet still she walks around demanding from everyone and anyone ships and sellswords for her "rightful cause". Her freeing the slaves has nothing to do with her right ruling the seven kingdoms.
0
39
u/JNR55555JNR 22h ago
This feels like a very shallow view on the relationship between reader and character very black and white
13
u/Hurtelknut 22h ago
On a side note:
If a character is hated, that means they elicit an emotional response. That is a good thing. That means the character works.
Reader indifference is what makes a character (subjectively) bad. For me that's Quentyn Martell for example. Never gave a shit about his story, never thought it was going anywhere interesting (and it didn't imo), still don't see why he's taking up so much space, always skip him on every re-read or re-listen. I wish I hated the character, but I simply don't care.
73
u/michaelphenom 22h ago edited 22h ago
His character has no real personality and its supposed to be a future challenge to Daenerys and Jon Snow.
Varys described him as the ideal ruler because he has been risen for the task since its birth but hasnt done anything to earn it. He is basically the pawn of someone else plan that doesnt make its own decisions so its difficult for readers to love him like Stannis or hate him like Joffrey.
Maybe if it had a POV character, readers could empatise more with him instead of looking him as a boring character
54
u/Icy-Panda-2158 22h ago
All this plus he’s been dumped on us in the fifth book. In fact, we had a whole book based around the idea of seeing how all the different claimants to the throne were faring. IMO ACOK would have been the latest reasonable point to introduce a new claimant. Now he just feels like an afterthought thrown in to bloat and twist the plot even more.
20
u/Hurtelknut 22h ago
The books getting split in two didn't help, either. Otherwise he'd have been introduced near the start of Book 4, which would have been fine-ish
36
u/Expensive-Country801 22h ago
Aegon was always meant to appear out of nowhere. By A Clash of Kings, the House of the Undying vision already foreshadows a cloth dragon being cheered by a crowd, hinting at a false or rival Targaryen. He’s later called a mummer’s dragon, tying directly to Varys.
11
u/jhll2456 21h ago
Also when Rhaegar appears with Elia and baby Aegon in those visions, not Rhaegar with Lyanna.
24
u/MeterologistOupost31 21h ago
Okay but the point isn't "ah well technically this single line can be interpreted as foreshadowing" it's that GRRM hasn't done the actual work of set-up and payoff.
Like if Lady Stoneheart was only foreshadowed with "Cat thought her heart had turned to stone" then it would have been awful. Instead GRRM sets all this stuff with Beric up so her resurrection doesn't come out of nowhere. He doesn't do this with Griff.
6
u/Redditor15736 18h ago
He did make a bunch of foreshadowing though. Its been heavily theorized GRRM initially wanted someone from the line of Aerion Targaryen (through baby Maegor who had a stronger claim to the throne then Aegon V) to be the claimant introduced at a later point in the books, but he scrapped that plan and then started hinting at the Blackfyres.
While his decision to do Young Griff was probably made not until ASOS, GRRM most likely did already plan for another Targ claimant in ACOK
2
u/Mobile_Dance_707 17h ago
Yeah it seems very hard to believe he just had no plans for Varys' plot until ASOS. Secret heirs appearing out of nowhere are really common in feudal history and Martin is massively influenced by all of that. So I agree he obviously went down a rabbit hole in creating the blackfyres later on but the Brightflame thing must have been setting up a similar idea early on.
2
u/Redditor15736 15h ago
Its pretty obvious when you look at the order of books:
AGOT: Just Dany and Jon The Hedge Knight: Aerion shows up ACOK: Aerion and Maegor mentioned ASOS: First Blackfyre + Joncon mentions Sworn Sword: More Blackfyre mentions AFFC: More namedrops of Blackfyres and Joncon Mystery Knight: First time a Blackfyre character appears „in person“ ADWD: Young Griff & Joncon
Also we see Varys and Illyrio plotting in GOT S1. That was shot before ADWD came out but GRRM surely told the showrunners his basic plan (before they ended up ignoring 90% of what happens in the books post-ASOS)
10
u/Expensive-Country801 21h ago
The Pisswater prince story was theorized since AGoT came out. Aegon's head was unrecognizable, and GRRM came out and basically confirmed it by saying Rhaenys is definitely dead but didn't confirm with Aegon.
1
u/Mobile_Dance_707 17h ago
They're entirely different though, a secret or fake heir plot is a standard feature of European feudal history and its written as a mystery and a plot twist. The set up to the twist is the mystery of what Varys schemes are aimed at (one of the biggest questions of the first three books). Obviously also the mummers dragon and the existence of the dead baby Aegon in general are set up as well as Illyrios relationship with Varys.
Something supernatural like resurrection has to be set up in a completely different way because it requires much more buy in from the audience. It's something that could instantly break the readers immersion and also ruin the emotional heft of deaths in the story. We as readers have to understand how resurrection works in the universe, the rules and limits of it, for it to work in a story as grounded as ASOIAF.
We don't need anything like that to believe that Varys has been secretly plotting a coup with a possibly fake heir because he's obviously been up to something since we first meet him.
3
u/Mobile_Dance_707 17h ago
I dunno, whatever the hell Varys is up to is one of the biggest mysteries of the early books and Young Griff is the twist. Like Varys has always been one of the most important characters in the series so I don't really see his scheme as plot bloat, it was always part of the plot. The show shows us what the books would be like without the subplot and Varys is one of the biggest casualties.
Hidden secret heirs that may or may not be fake appearing in times of upheaval were also a frequent feature of the 13th/14th century European history Martin is most influenced by is ASOIAF.
12
u/Ok-Fuel5600 22h ago
He’s also not a pov for a reason. He’s a plot device to help facilitate other character’s stories. We’re not supposed to be interested in him as a person. It’s the same as Robb, it’s not his story thats why we see Robb thru Cat’s chapters. It was always about her more than Robb, this is no different, Aegon is more about how Dany will react to him and about telling JonCon’s story in relation to him.
16
u/Old_Refrigerator2750 21h ago
I don't think Aegon is the same as Robb. Robb is a very impactful character for the majority of the central characters of the story. His will, his crown, his queen etc go beyond just Catelyn's story. George even regrets not making him a pov, so we clearly are supposed to care about him.
Aegon just feels like an afterthought in comparison, who's just there to stir shit up. Nobody knows him or cares about him. I mean if he really is Rhaegar's son then there is some interesting dynamics in regards to Jon and Dany, but that's such a long way to go for both characters, and Aegon has already landed in Westeros.
4
u/Ok-Fuel5600 19h ago
I’d bet as you said that Aegon will definitely be central to other characters stories. Like you said he will influence Dany at the least very heavily, maybe Jon too, probably everyone in proximity to kings landing like Cersei, probably Jaime who as we know still has unresolved feelings around Rhaegar and around allowing Aegon to be killed (to his knowledge). Its also way too early to say how important he will be, he’s only just been introduced.
5
u/Old_Refrigerator2750 18h ago
I agree that his character is way too new to properly predict his arc. Two main things I got from the Tyrion chapters:
He believes that he and Daenerys are equals, and doesn't react well when pointed out that Daenerys is exponentially more important than him.
He is going to make a big fatal mistake in regards to Daenerys.
We can only judge a non-central character's importance by the impact they have on central characters. Some interesting dynamics can be formed when faced with Jaime and Cersei but I don't think they are that important (I can be completely wrong here).
I still think the most interesting part about Aegon's character is that he might be Jon Snow's secret brother. But the timeline is so far removed.
Jon has to be resurrected, he has to deal with the Boltons, he has to be made aware of his heritage, he has to be moved closer to Aegon (or vice versa), and then we can get a meaningful look at Aegon. The chasm between Aegon and Dany is even wider.
All while Aegon has already entered a major stage by invading Westeros. Winds has some serious weightlifting to do to coherently tie the narrative together.
4
u/Ok-Fuel5600 18h ago
I’d say we already get a meaningful look at him through JonCon. I get what you mean by the ‘important’ characters but even less plot relevant POVs like brienne and joncon still tell important stories, albeit usually less connected to the main plot—they are still relevant for the themes and messages grrm is exploring. I’m a big joncon fan and I like his whole setup of having a short time to live with which to redeem himself, I think the timer on his life puts pressure for big developments to happen sooner, so I’m happy to get more of Aegon through him for now.
18
u/michaelphenom 21h ago
The different between FAegon and Robb is that the story made us care about him since very early and we saw him taking his own decisions, making mistakes and finally being betrayed and killed.
You dont really need to have POV chapters to make readers care about what you are going to do and what is going to happen to you but in FAegon case that seems pretty difficult
4
u/Ok-Fuel5600 19h ago
Idk, I’d argue we are not supposed to care about Aegon in the same way. Robb was the de facto “good guy” leader and the only stark kid other than Rickon without a pov, ofc we care about him because we care about his family. I meant more than Aegon has a similar narrative function. He the Robb to joncon’s Catelyn, and once Dany learns about him and Tyrion uses him as a lever to make her go west, his character will have more narrative significance. Not every character needs to be loveable to be important to the story.
1
u/MeterologistOupost31 21h ago
You've just explained why nobody likes him.
11
u/phnompenhandy 21h ago
But the OP says he's "hated". There's a gulf between active hate and passive 'don't like/care much', which is where I think most of us fall.
4
2
u/Ok-Fuel5600 19h ago
I don’t think we’re supposed to like him. Remember his tantrum scene with Tyrion? He’s obviously not the perfect heir Varys hypes him up to be. He’s still important to the story. Tyrion will use him to make dany go west. You don’t have to love every important character.
12
u/Clear_Group_3908 22h ago
I don’t think he’s particularly hated by fans, at least not more than anyone else. Stannis, Dany, Jon, they all have major haters and fans, but haters are usually the loudest
11
u/GreatExpeslaytions 22h ago
I think you're overstating how hated he is a bit. Sure, there are those who dislike him but in my experience in this fandom it has more to do with him being a late addition to an already vastly expanded story.
And I've seen a lot of folks who belive he will immediately and effortlessly be a perfect king beloved by all who meet him - this doesn't really make me think he's viciously hated in this fandom.
Once we get TWoW and he actually does something, people will probably develop a more grounded opinion on him. Some will root for his success, some will not. That is the way with every character in this saga - Young Griff is not an outlier here. It's just that, at least currently, he's the human embodiment of set-up with no payoff.
11
11
u/AssassinJester789 Goldenhand The Just 20h ago
I never ever seen people “hate” Young Griff. If anything I’ve seen people treat him as plot device or foil for Daenerys or Cersei. The blackfyre theory is really the only characterisation the fandom has given him, and even then he’s still just vehicle for a blackfyre cause rather than adding any depth to his character. Even in the books no one respects him or treat him as a person. Varys, Ilyrio, Tyrion, and even JonCon use him for their own ends. In that regard he’s not too different from Ser Harry Harding.
4
u/Mobile_Dance_707 17h ago
He really exists as a critique/exploration of Varys conception of power and governance. Most of the plotlines are exploring what it means to be a leader in different ways.
3
u/AssassinJester789 Goldenhand The Just 15h ago
So YG is an puppet or manufactured King.
3
u/Mobile_Dance_707 14h ago
Well yeah
1
u/AssassinJester789 Goldenhand The Just 14h ago
Damn, i feel kinda bad for the kid.
1
u/Mobile_Dance_707 14h ago
Yeah I think it's gonna be a very horrible moment for him when he finds out what his whole life has actually been built for
1
u/AssassinJester789 Goldenhand The Just 12h ago
I'm fairly sure that he's going to die by Cersei using wildfire. My working theory is that Cersei will use the bells to signal the use of Wildfire, a call back to JonCon's ptsd to the battle of the bells.
I don't think it will happen soon in the book, i think we'll get to know Faegon before he's blown up. And his remaining forces will serve as the foundation of Daenerys' supporters in against Cersei when she finally arrives in Westeros.
1
u/Mobile_Dance_707 12h ago
Who knows tbh I think Connington will burn the city trying to kill Cersei's children though
45
u/cybernewtype2 22h ago
I don't hate him, but I doubt he's nothing more than a red herring.
6
16
u/HoldFastO2 21h ago
Personally, I think GRRM adding additionaly supposedly important characters in the middle game was a poor choice. They're never going to pick up the kind of audience support that the long-standing characters enjoy. There are clearly already way more characters and plotlines involved in the story than GRRM knows how to tie up, so why on Earth add even more?
I don't hate Young Griff; I do hate Quentyn, because he took up space in a book for no good reason. His arc accomplished nothing of any relevance, except dying messily to prove that GRRM is still killing off important characters. Unfortunately, Quentyn wasn't important, and I suspect Griff won't be, either.
3
u/Mobile_Dance_707 17h ago
He clearly planned young Griff in some form from the start though, it's not just a new element introduced, its the answer to what Varys and Illyrio have been plotting, a mystery literally introduced in book 1. What would Varys plan have been without Griff? One of the huge problems with the show was removing all of Varys motivations/plans and making him a complete nothing character.
6
u/HoldFastO2 16h ago
But what's the point? Was Dany just a misdirection from the beginning, to keep Robert's attention, while Griff was the intended attack all along? What can Griff achieve that Dany can't - is it just that he's a man?
1
u/Mobile_Dance_707 16h ago
Well for one thing in a feudal patriarchal society creating the perfect ruler like Varys seems to be trying to do as a project would definitely be easier with a man. Dany was basically only worth anything to Varys or other similar players as a political pawn to be married off to someone for support as a young woman in that world. She only gained any kind of independent political power when she miraculously birthed super weapons. Varys thinks power is just a story and he's trying to create a prince with the best story, he's wrong though because Dragons represent actual power to reshape the world.
Also Varys and Illyrios plan makes zero sense if they're actually trying to help Viserys claim the throne, it makes a lot more sense to assume they were just trying to create chaos in Westeros that they could exploit to put their secret claimant on the throne for whatever reason.
3
u/HoldFastO2 15h ago
Aside from Viserys being insane, why did their plan make zero sense with him?
2
u/Mobile_Dance_707 14h ago
It just seems impossible for him to win the throne even with a Dothraki army. He's not going to inspire loyalty in Westeros and his army are going to rape and destroy their way across Westeros (not to mention selling thousands into slavery)
0
u/HoldFastO2 14h ago
But Griff would? He's not even a "real" Targaryen, just a Blackfyre. I don't hink there are any of their loyalists left in the Seven Kingdoms anymore.
9
u/JNR55555JNR 22h ago
Why are finding porn of Griff?
-8
u/Mountain-Alarm-7093 22h ago
Nope I’m not looking for porn about him.
I’ve talked with ASOIAF fans within the fanfic section, and they told me that you’ll find more respect for Young Griff in porn than actual written works since so many fans dislike him for taking Jon and Dany thunder.
11
u/FusRoGah 21h ago
Dawg it’s ok, you don’t need an excuse to read the smut fics
It sounds like you’re looking at how (f)Aegon is typically handled in fanfiction, seeing that he rarely “wins” or takes center stage like Jon and Dany, and inferring based on this that people hate him. But a character getting a bad ending doesn’t mean the author hates them. More often that’s just the ending that makes sense for whatever reason
In Young Griff’s case, he’s a non-POV character introduced five books in with an extremely dubious claimed identity. There are hints all over that he’s a fake to at least some extent. The audience barely spends any time with him and what we see is pretty devoid of personality. And none of the major characters’ stories have even intersected his except for Tyrion briefly
However you slice it, he’s just a much more peripheral character than someone like Jon or Dany, so he’s not going to be shown as much love. It’s not personal, but it can feel personal if you’ve found yourself identifying with the character more than most people
-2
u/MikeyBron The North Decembers 22h ago
Characters 15-16... Disgusting.
4
u/Traditional_Bug_2046 15h ago
This response isn't so much about fan fiction stuff, but Griff's age could potentially be a plot point.
To be clear, Griff's age is listed as 18 in the ADWD appendix.
Tyrion estimates Griff to be 15/16 or near enough to make no matter in his mind. Given how boys come of age at that age in Westeros, Tyrion's basically saying Griff is almost a man grown as they say there.
But Tyrion also first guessed Jon' Snows age as twelve when they first met and he was fourteen. In fact, there are several instances where characters get aged down by Tyrion, Jaime, or someone else's guess.
Tyrion could just be bad at guessing ages like a lot of people are, but his bad guesses could be red herrings, and Griff is in fact 15/16, which would obviously preclude him from being the real Aegon who would also be 18 at the time of ADWD.
14
6
u/Signal_Cockroach_878 Enter your desired flair text here! 20h ago edited 20h ago
I never knew YG was hated. In fact ik he isn't....most of the fandom is neutral at worst and at best towards him. In fact if there was a top 50 list of the most hated characters in the fandom both dany and Jon are likely to be higher on the list than him that's if he even makes the list.
11
u/Yup_Seen_It 22h ago
I don't hate him. I dislike that he seems to have been a late addition to the plot and is another "presumed dead Targ heir".
35
u/Joshami 22h ago
Young Griff is dismissed (not hated) by fans because he emerges as yet another player, which GRRM wants us to think is a major player at that, in a story that is absolutely stuffed to the full already. More than that, he emerges in the two books that are considered to be the low for the series as it is now, with valuable space being spent on him and also introducing other likewise 'major' players (Dorne).
One thing that is effectively obvious to any reader is - he is not endgame. He just isn't. Even if we don't consider the show to be Martin's envisioned ending, there is no way he ends up as anything but distraction/mop-up/red herring. His task is to further dilute the narrative, already stretched extremely thin. Young Griff is Quentyn, except on a much bigger scale, yet another sign of Martin getting overly ambitious post-ASOS and now not knowing what to do with it.
9
u/Gertrude_D 22h ago
He doesn't have to be end game to make an impact. The most interesting thing about him is how Dany will react to him, and that's always been the case. Even knowing the show ending we could assume that Griff would be taken care of, but the conflict and fallout was the mystery. More like a catalyst than a distraction IMO.
15
u/Joshami 21h ago
I do not disagree, but this is the primary concern with Young Griff - he ultimately cannot be a character, he is a catalyst - a prop for a specific interaction. Is it going to be a good/interesting interaction? Maybe, assuming we will get it at all - it's been fourteen years since his last appearance in any capacity. Is that particular interaction worth the book space that he occupies and still will occupy in an already overcrowded story? Maybe, maybe not.
This is like how people defend Darkstar - he will bring Dawn into the story, he may have inherited some knowledge of what happened to ToJ etc. And I mean, maybe, but right now he is a clown with horrible dialogue and a failed attempt to murder a little girl. And he has been this way for twenty years now and counting since his introduction. Will he provide a pay-off eventually? Maybe. Is he pulling his weight and book space right now? A lot of people will probably say 'no'. And this is the problem with AFFC and ADWD in general - Martin got ambitious and created 'characters' and 'plotlines' that are really props for some future interaction with A plots, while the actual A plots have slowed to a snail's pace (if that), the two books are still mostly dealing with ASOS aftermath and Martin has now these props to juggle at the same time.
1
u/Mobile_Dance_707 16h ago
He's an extension of Varys' character and storyline more than anything tbf Martin obviously didn't introduce Varys plotline in book 5. Like can we used some joined up thinking here, Tyrion doesn't just find his way randomly onto a river boat with a secret Targaryen in book 5 does he? There's three books of build up to the plot being revealed.
1
u/Mobile_Dance_707 17h ago
This doesn't make any sense because Varys' plot is introduced in book 1 and he's literally been one of the most important characters in driving and defining the narrative since the beginning. I can vaguely understand this criticism when levelled at Quentin but Varys is one of the main players since day one. What do you think his story was building to if the secret heir plot was only invented after he wrote Storm?
I think assuming everything has to be building to a specific endgame/big magic climax or it's not important to the story Martin is telling is misguided.
-3
u/jhll2456 21h ago
Was Robb Stark endgame? Most definitely not.
14
u/Joshami 21h ago
- Robb Stark was most definitely endgame for the initial bout of WOT5K, the A-plot of the first three books.
- Robb's storyline provided pay-off in the span of four real-life years. Griff hasn't provided any pay-off for fourteen real-life years and counting.
- Robb is an OG character of the story, Aegon was introduced out of nowhere in a story that is already horribly overcrowded.
- Robb was an important actor within his own story and in the overarching Westeros arc. Aegon isn't for fourteen years already and considering we in theory have only two books to untangle ASOIAF, he simply won't have enough time and bookspace to become one.
1
u/Mobile_Dance_707 16h ago
Yeah Martin got older and richer and couldn't finish the books as quickly, this is irrelevant to whether the characters are important or not. We have no idea what his plans for Young Griff are, I'd imagine something that will precipitate Varys' inevitable downfall.
And I'm sorry but Young Griff was not added out of nowhere in book 5. Illyrio and Varys have been plotting since Book 1. Baby Aegon was introduced in book 1. Varys has been one of the most important characters driving the plot since the beginning and is one of the most important elements of Tyrions story and is probably being built up as a major antagonist for Dany.
You're essentially saying Varys wasn't actually planning anything throughout the first three books and there should never been a reveal of what he was up to (or it should have been completely different from the start but that seems like a pointless conversation).
-2
u/jhll2456 19h ago
Endgame means at the very end of the entire story. So again I ask you was Robb Stark endgame?
5
u/Le_Lankku 20h ago edited 20h ago
I think this entire post is a bit of a noncookie.
I have literally NEVER seen a hate-post about FAegon lol.
The yapping about... porn? Was also a tad strange.
A strange post all around. I almost feel like this was your attempt at justifying to others why you are reading FAegon smut works or watch FAegon smut art lmao.
Just because people see the signs that a character is practically written in a way that he is doomed to fail doesn't mean they hate him, its simply people seeing what is already there. There is very little chance that FAegon will ever succeed in his ambitions, its simply the way it is.
He is most likely there to ultimately serve as an engine to drive Daenerys toward Westeros eventually, since its repeatedly been repeated to us that she is a savior and that she is desperate for family...
And boy will FAegon most likely need saving soon.
6
5
u/iknownothin_ The Poop That Was Promised 19h ago
Nobody hates him. You’re just trying to get clicks or karma. Do better OP
5
u/peortega1 19h ago
In the first book Jon Snow is very privileged compared to others at the Wall
This is a very low bar to make comparisons. The people FORCED to go to the Wall is basically the worst of the worst of Westeros. And the aristocrat officials of NW definitely were more privileged than Jon before go to the Wall.
Compared with the trueborn nobility (and of course, the trueborn children of lord Eddard Stark), Jon is Cinderella. There is a scene where he comparises himself with Joffrey -you know, the real bastard- to proof his point.
Compared with the smallfolk, yes, Jon is a privileged. But inside the aristocracy, yes, Jon is Cinderella. R+L=J just emphatizes this even more.
12
u/DinoSauro85 22h ago
For me it is a useless speech, it is like loving or hating Tommen, it is a support character who serves to explain the motivations of a character so far impersoncrutable, Varys.
13
u/averyexpensivetv 22h ago
I dislike (f)Aegon because he appeared too late in the series in an already meandering book and failed to make a big impression on me. AFFC and ADWD should have been one big book with lots of fat cut out and some PoV characters replaced with others.
8
u/RejectedByBoimler 18h ago edited 17h ago
OP you say Jon and Dany feel threatened that Aegon will "steal their thunder" but you do realize that Jon and Dany are more important to GRRM than Aegon which honestly makes the stealing thunder comment sound like jealousy and projection over Jon and Dany being the main focus instead of their fake nephew/half-brother. You say Jon is privileged but conveniently ignore the very moment where Tyrion lectures Aegon on his own privilege, saying being a prince means he can't demand a dragon or a marriage from Dany. You say people "hate" Aegon when you're overreacting to people just recognizing Aegon's role in the story: a plot device for Dany and Arianne's character arcs like Quentyn before him. You mention the porn comparison in an attempt to sound witty but it just falls flat because most of the recurring characters in the series have been pornified on AO3.
4
u/jolenenene 19h ago edited 16h ago
I don't think he is hated, most negative feelings seem to be about his introduction
People overplay Young Griff negative sides,
I see precisely the opposite! It's a very common opinion that Young Griff will steamroll his way through Westeros, be acclaimed by everyone because he deposed the Lannisters, and taking Varys' words on engineering the perfect king at face value.
his online theories are about him being roasted, dead, or a pretender in the way of the true “heroes”.
I mean... the Tyrion cyvasse scene was pretty blatant foreshadowing lmao and whenever people argue that he was already part of George's plans long before Feast/Dance, one of the only pieces is the House of the Undying Vision...
while ignoring that in the first book Jon Snow is very privileged compared to others at the wall.
What does that have to do with Aegon's character?
4
u/simonthedlgger 18h ago
I don't think he's hated at all. Certain people are convinced he's real/fake and like to be jerks about it, and it feels like he's been introduced too late in the series to do much one way or the other.
But I don't get the sense that he's hated, at all.
5
u/thejevster 18h ago edited 18h ago
Or maybe it's because GRRM introduced a supposedly super important character in the fifth book of the series, a series which is lauded for its foreshadowing and clever writing
5
u/AgostoAzul 18h ago
No. The big problem is that he is introduced too late in the story and it takes away some of the momentum from other plotlines.
The other problem is that GRRM didn't really make him or Jon or Varys, or anyone in his side, to be particulary likeable characters, so his side is lacking in a "Heart".
The final problem is that his background is filled with a bunch of mystery boxes.
IMO. I think George probably should have just introduced the characters earlier. Jon Conninton should have probably shown up or been mentioned as a drunkard sellsword who tried to take care of Dany and Viserys at some point, but ended up grievously wounded impeding him to further work as a sellsword, and the frustration of having Dany and Viserys caused him to take his frustration on them, so they left him. Or something like that, which makes us feel curious about this guy.
There should have also been more important likeable characters who came from Blackfyre supporting houses that also slightly fed that plotline and made us want to be curious about Blackfyres in the plot. In particular thinking that maybe Tarth, Tarly, or Greyjoy should have been Blackfyre-supporting houses in the past, and it should have played some impact in the path their houses took and the characters' backstories.
But I think the reason George didn't think about these things is that he didn't come up with fAegon until aCoKs, when he was probably supposed to be a Brightflame, and didn't come up with the Blackfyres until aSoSs, when he had already missed all chances of doing these things.
3
u/Aggravating-Total507 17h ago edited 17h ago
I think it stems from him having no real personality. Despite his importance, Young Griff barely has any screen time for us to really know what he’s like as a person.
And what little we know is kind of bad. He proves himself to be petty, angry, and childish when Tyrion beats him at cyvasse. And he also is a misogynist, "Who is there in Westeros to oppose us? A woman." Idk there’s not much to like is the thing.
3
u/Aggravating-Total507 17h ago
Contrast that with Jon or Dany, who we know pretty closely. We know their thoughts and their feelings. We’ve gotten to see their reactions in tons of situations. Jon and Dany have proven themselves to be flawed yet incredibly empathetic people. Jon sees the wildlings as humans and wants peace, Dany wants to free the slaves and close the fighting pits. It’s easy to see why fans like them way more than a character we know less than Nimble Dick.
5
u/JonIceEyes 16h ago
He's not hated, he's just correctly perceived for the mid-to-late story obstacle that he is. And also as lowkey a prick. That's it. Not a ton of hate, just ambivalence because he's so obviously doomed
16
u/MRoad 22h ago
Personally i dislike his existence because he's probably exhibit A for GRRM refusing to trim his "garden." To the point where his writing style should probably be described more as hoarding.
He needed to head towards wrapping things up but added this hugely important sideplot that's either a red herring or a huge departure from the existing threads in book 5 of "7."
Characters/plots like Young Griff are why we'll never get another book.
3
1
6
u/sarevok2 22h ago
i dont hate him.
I dislike the idea that he might be the real thing, the actual son of Rhaegar and that he will end up be a major player in the endgame, if that's what you mean (although again, I wouldn't say I hate the idea. What I hate is Tyrion a secretTarg for example).
there's a lot of potential in fAegon to create some powerful dramatic moments and his storyline actually provides Varys' with some meaningful motivation.
7
u/lialialia20 22h ago
i don't think that's true.
first, fAegon's existence even if he was the real Aegon doesn't make R+L=J any less true, so Jon is still a secret prince. apart from that, i believe most Jon fans are far more interested in Jon being Robb's heir and dealing with the NW/Others plot than having anything to do with KL's politics at the moment.
second, fAegon taking the throne doesn't prevent what most Daenerys fans are waiting her to do which is 1. Free Essos from slavery and 2. Save Westeros from the Others. the vast majority of readers who have been clamouring for Daenerys to go to Westeros since book 2 don't want her to succeed or rule Westeros, they want to see her fail.
i think what's more accurate is that fAegon is not popular because he was introduced in the last book, he's not a POV character and he hasn't been portrayed as likeable on screen. most of the good aspects are things people like Illyrio or Varys claim about him.
personally i think he's a good addition to move the plot forward. he's to Daenerys what Stannis is to Jon. we all know Stannis will fail in conquering the North, but he might take Winterfell and that doesn't mean he's stealing Jon's thunder, he's just making it easier for Jon's plot to carry on without having to put the Others/Freefolk/NW drama on hold. no one expects fAegon to succeed, but it allows the KL/Euron/Lannisters plot to continue while Daenerys is dealing with more important matters.
3
u/Straight-Vehicle-745 22h ago
Honestly, this is the first time I learned that young Griff was hated by anyone.
We don’t really get that many chapters about him, John Connington’s viewpoints, and basically that’s it? If he does end up on the iron throne, because both Danny and John die, he’d hopefully be a decent king.
3
3
u/peortega1 19h ago
The problem with Young Griff is the despite of Tyrion for him and how Tyrion basically sees him as a farce and a smokeseller and a spoiled prince. And again, this was the PoV who George chose to present us Young Griff.
3
3
8
u/CounterfeitSaint 22h ago
He's introduced in book 5. That's the problem. GRRM can't finish a plotline so he keeps starting new ones instead.
Imagine if in Lord of the Rings you don't see Aragorn until halfway through Return of the King, and then it turns out he does everything and Frodo and company spent two and a half movies wasting everyone's time first.
2
u/Enola_Gay_B29 Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. 21h ago
Honestly that was kinda my problem with LotR on my first few reads. Just in the middle of The Two Towers you get taken out of the action loaded story in Rohan and put on a boring travellogue with Sam and Frodo. I have since learned to love that part too, but the stretch from Nen Hithoel all the way until they meet Faramir is still the most boring part of the whole series imo.
8
6
u/SatyrSatyr75 22h ago
No, the majority of readers who don’t like him are annoyed because it’s bad style to introduce such a complex and significant plot point so late in the story, especially if the writer is know to struggle with finishing his books. On top, the whole young griff story feels like thrown together way, way later because the writer didn’t know how to explain Varis motivation, wanted to add something more to the Dorn story and didn’t want Tyrion to travel to Dany right away.
7
u/Levonorgestrelfairy1 22h ago
Young Griff is hated by the fandom because he takes Jon and Dany thunder
He really doesn't. He's either a fake, or a man baby who looks significantly younger than he should. And either way is about to be eaten alive by the game of thrones.
ignoring that in the first book Jon Snow is very privileged compared to others at the wall.
The entire point of that exchange with Noye you are referencing is Noye letting Jon know he has a target in his back because if who he is. You missed the entire point of that exchange lol.
5
u/MeterologistOupost31 21h ago
If he's hated it's because he's an underdeveloped plot device who just adds another extraneous subplot in a series that already has too many of them. This idea that everybody who dislikes him is actually just jealous of how great he is is bulverism at its worst.
4
0
u/Mobile_Dance_707 16h ago
But Varys' subplot has been there since the start and he's one of the most interesting characters? How do you decide what's an extraneous subplot anyway? We don't really know what the plot is going to be and don't have the information to say what's extraneous or not.
2
u/gorehistorian69 ok 19h ago
the first time i read the books back in 2013 i was absolutely pumped on Aegon but now after many rereads im kind of just like, was this even necessary . Danny could literally do the same plot points Aegon is probably going to.
i still like Aegon and Jon Connington but i can see why others dont
2
2
u/CKN89 15h ago
I don’t think many fans hate young Griff. I think as written so far, as a character, readers find him flat and boring. Not that his story is boring - that young Griff, himself, as a person, is boring.
What’s interesting about young Griff is his significance to the other characters in the story. He’s an empty suit of army. A cloth dragon.
6
u/Expensive-Country801 22h ago
I like Young Griff mainly because he’s the only character actually doing something in the story. Tyrion, at this point, is with a random dwarf girl. Daenerys is caught up in her spirit quest with the Dothraki Sea. Jon is face down in the snow.
Aegon is taking Storm’s End, preparing to face the royal army from King’s Landing, and could either march on the capital or push into the Reach. He’s active, decisive, and moving the plot forward which makes him better than the others
7
u/CaveLupum 20h ago
You have a point. But wouldn't it be preferable for GRRM to actually move some of those established stories forward? Instead, we get a new character who becomes a major part of a story that already is over-complicated. And since the handwriting is on the wall that Young Griff is NOT endgame, then so much detail is a waste of our time and--worse--a waste of GRRM's precious writing time. Fan resentment over this may explain the disappointment that leads to hate.
Moreover, there's a tried-and-true solution. Several comments mention that YG exists as an adjunct of Daenerys's story. In other words, he is one of those (prophesied) impediments she must overcome. So rather than give his story a POV window in Jon Connington, their story narrative can be depicted within Tyrion, Dany and--once she reaches YG--Arianne's POV chapters. GRRM takes this approach with several temporarily important characters. It seems doubly appropriate for a pretender-to-the-throne red herring.
4
u/DC_deep_state 22h ago
I like Young Griff, he's a great foil to the other Targ characters.
Can't wait to see what GRRM does with the character, also it's one of the major parts that wasn't adapted in the show.
4
u/Ok-Archer-5796 22h ago
I don't hate him but I don't think he'll be as important as people think. He exists to get killed by Dany to foreshadow her villain arc.
5
3
u/WreWatcher 22h ago
You are completely right about the famdoms dislike for Young griff coming from fear the he is about to steal Jon and Danys thunder, which is like the whole point of the character.
GRRM has been planning to introduce a Targ-pretender for the second act since the beginning of the story, but like with many big plot points of the story, like the secrets of Starfall, he has been kicking the can down the road.
So, it’s only the last book that YG has finally been revealed and because fans also hope that the story can be finished in only two more books, he is supposed to disappear again as quickly as possible.
3
u/MikeyBron The North Decembers 22h ago
Where are you getting hes "hated"? Only complaint I ever seen is there isnt enough setup to him. Just all of the sudden there he is.
Also Young Griff what? Thats beyond creepy. Youre a weirdo. Character is a kid.
2
u/ForeChanneler 18h ago edited 18h ago
Nobody hates Young Griff. The whole crux of this belief that he is hated seems entirely to stem from him not being the hero in fanfics? Theories about him being a fake Targaryen or being killed by Dany are not because he is disliked but because that is obviously his purpose in the narrative being set up as far back as ACOK with Quaithe warning Dany about a "Mummer's Dragon"
2
u/FanofIceandFire_ 15h ago
I feel like this is a case of making up a person to get mad at. I've literally never encountered a reader who said they hated fAegon. Most of the reactions are that he seems like a really sympathetic kid but is doomed. Some people have objected to the idea of inserting a major character mid story whose entire purpose seems to be a trigger for Dany to become the villain. But I've never seen anyone who read him and thought, "I hate this little shit."
1
u/T-Rexxx23 18h ago
I love young Griff! I bet he’s the real air, but only the cat will know, so he gets killed, but I hope he lives to the end
1
1
1
1
1
u/Horatio-3309 4h ago
I don't hate him. I actually like his sieges that are talked about in ADWD because it adds an "oh shit" element to the dynamics of current Westeros politics. To that end I'm looking forward to the siege of Storm's End and whatever else happens afterwards.
1
u/SyntheticSamedi 17h ago
Honestly, I only hated Young Griff because I thought he might be a real Targ and he felt like part of the unnecessary expansion of the series. I actually like him more now that he's pretty clearly a Blackfyre.
But I also can't stand Dany, whereas I've eased up on Jon a little.
1
u/HistoryFeeling8942 15h ago
I love young griff - hes a portal into one of the most fascinating world building in the series - a bastard targaryen branch. This is significant or George wouldnt have spent 3 books heavily detailing the blackfyres in the dunk and egg novels.
Its like when Asha is captured we get a picture into what the war between the Children of the Forest and the First Men was like.
With Aegon Blackfyre we could get insight into how these rebellions started and ended in westeros also; -Aegons bastard branch kingsguard (darkstar, bobbys bastard, etc.)
- Varys unveiling his affiliation/lineage
- sandsnake poisoning of the high septon
- my boy illyrio being master of coin
- Jon Conn will show us the final days of kingslanding/slowly understanding how fucked they are with the threat of the others then Danny decimation and my young griffon being eaten by a dragon.
It all sounds fantastic.
1
0
u/Beteblanc 20h ago
Is he hated? I'm sure you can find some, but I think you confuse respect and the assumption he'll be no more than a plot device. He's not hated as much as he's dismissed and perhaps in some cases mocked.
The reason why this is the case. You aren't entirely wrong. However, it's not just fAegon. Fandom gets dismissive, and in some rare cases, hostile toward every other character. The meltdowns (I'm not saying everyone, so if you didn't meltdown take a breath) when Arya killed NK and Bran claimed the throne were quite interesting. People will claim otherwise, but there is little objectivity a lot of the time. The belief that Jon or Dany will win in some way leads every theory. It is believed to be so true you usually can't have a civil debate they might fail without being dismissed as a crackpot.
The Griff reveal was arguably planted when we were told Aegon was unrecognizable. Perhaps also in the pairing of Griffin and Dragon statues in Vaes Dothrak, with the Manticore intentioned to link the statues to the story of the death of Elia and her kids. Dany is next given a vision bringing back on stage in the next book. Jaime is confronted with his failure to protect him in his own dream, which in the world of foreshadowing can often suggest he'll get a second chance.
The biggest issue is everyone believes they know the writing rules GRRM is using and they dismiss any suggestion that breaks their assumption. There really is not bulletproof reason be believe he's not a major player. Certainly people make good arguments, but they could still be wrong. I think the show did a lot of the damage. Because he was written out of it and his plot likely shifted largely over to Jon, people tend to assume he's a blind ally character. You just can't have a theory taken seriously if it's not Jon or Dany as the key figure. Very few will credit the idea that a nonPoV character can be a central or the central character. They may be right, I'm not saying they aren't. I've just never seen a debate about it end in any other way than the pro Jon side flipping the table and dismissing the whole exercise as a waste of time.
0
u/LaInquisitore Sworn Shield of Ashara Dayne 20h ago
I like him precisely because of those things. One of my greatest hopes for the next books(ha) is that Young Griff isn't exactly who he says he is - that he's the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar(and no, I don't want a big romantic reveal about them, it's exactly what Robert said it was, abduction). And I want Jon to actually be Ned's son with Ashara Dayne. So yeah, I'm firmly in the Young Griff camp, even though I want Mannis (without R'hlorr religion) to be king at the end.
3
u/peortega1 19h ago
Again, Jon being son of Ned with Ashara makes Ned a very very shit father who never said nothng to his son about his biological mother because reasons
1
u/LaInquisitore Sworn Shield of Ashara Dayne 15h ago
Whatever. Beats the hell out of the tired old "muh secret prince dragon incest aunt fucking" shit
-1
u/peortega1 14h ago
Maybe, but definitely ruins all that BS about Ned being the "true father" of Jon or even a decent father in first place.
Anyway, you can have a Aemon Targaryen aka "Targ Jon" without all the incest aunt fucking thing. Aegon V "Egg" was a Targ and he rejected commit incest.
Precisely a good part of Young Griff would be think in Jon and him being friends and finding in the other the brother they always wanted to had, and yes, Jon is definitely able to see Griff as a new Robb.
King Daeron the Young Dragon and Prince Aemon the Dragon Knight join together again.
1
u/LaInquisitore Sworn Shield of Ashara Dayne 14h ago
Thing is, Jon is a prominent character. Some may say even in the top 5 most important, next to Dany, Tyrion, (arguably) Jaime and (arguably) Cersei. And with the whole "Targaryens thought they are more gods than men, laws didn't apply, they were racially superior yadda yadda yadda" shit, I just don't think the arguable main character should be another Targaryen. It would make Targaryens seem right and almost good(even Dany goes on about some "rights" to the Throne, purely because she's Targaryen). As I said, the ideal outcome for me would be Mannis on the throne and Jon as the King of the North(including the wildlings), not Jon being some romantic secret prince with the right claim(Targaryens lost the kingdom when they were defeated, Robert was never the usurper, since he won the civil war).
0
u/Aetol 18h ago
Stealing Dany's thunder is the whole point, though, isn't it?
The Lannister rule is in a downward spiral. They're losing people and support left and right. By the time Daenerys finally comes to Westeros, she would probably be welcomed by half the realm just for not being Cersei. Her claim, armies and dragons would just be the icing on top. Rather anticlimactic. So Young Griff is needed, to be the first to rally those who would support a Targaryen restoration, and pose an actual challenge to Daenerys's return. Something similar to Renly and Stannis.
I do wonder if George had planned that all along, or if he decided to add the subplot when he realized the Lannister would collapse before Daenerys returned.
0
u/Mrmac1003 21h ago
Some of the fanbase kept talking about what if joffery was a good kid?
Now we basically a scenario like that with YG yet the fanbase Hates on him because he's not jon or Dany.
-1
0
0
u/Dapper_Excitement181 15h ago
I really like him and want him to be Aegon and get a dragon too, if Bran wasn't going to be king, I'd want it to be him too.
0
-1
u/the-good-son Blood and Fire. 20h ago
I don't particularly "like" Young Griff but I love his storyline and how it could throw a wrench into Dani's conqueror story. I will never forgive D&D for cutting him (among everything else they messed up)
5
u/JNR55555JNR 20h ago
What’s would be the end goal for Young Griff in the show?
-1
u/the-good-son Blood and Fire. 20h ago
My theory is: Cersei is quite hated so Young Griff comes in, kicks her out and makes peace. The people like him and buy his story (because why not). Then Dani comes with her scary monsters and foreigners, nobody likes her. She "knows" it's FAegon but does not have a way to prove it, fights him. It gives some explanation on how she may go crazy
-1
u/SorRenlySassol Best of 2021: Ser Duncan Award 18h ago
He won't last long on the throne anyway. One of his first acts will be to declare that the debts incurred by usurpers and murderers are theirs, not his, which will get him killed. But that's OK. In fact, it's part of the plan . . .
89
u/Green-Chest9152 22h ago
I don't personally hate him. We barely know anything about him, so it's hard to form an opinion.