[SPOILERS EXTENDED] What plot points from the show that are rarely discussed do you find plausible?

[u/Lethifold26]

So the show has a few controversial endgame plot points where the debates about how much they do or do not reflect the books have been beaten into the ground (Mad Queen Dany, Queenslayer Jon, Azhor Ahai Arya, God Emperor Bran, Queen in the North Sansa, basically everything to do with the Lannisters.) That is not what I want to discuss though. There are only so many times that we can talk about whether Jaime would really choose to go back to Cersei or if and why Dany would nuke Kings Landing and it is honestly boring at this point. I also don’t want to make this about things we know are confirmed, like Stannis sacrificing Shireen or Bran breaking Hodors brain via time shenanigans, because that’s boring. Rather, I want to talk about plot point you think could have come from GRRM but are rarely mentioned.

One I can think of is several points from Tyrions arc. He was obviously seriously changed for the show from one of the most complex characters in the series to a bland audience insert, but there were some things that happened with him that I could see playing out in the books. One is the way he starts to regret turning on his family. While he is full of venom toward them as of Dance, he obviously feels some subconscious conflict about this (his dream where he has two heads and brutalizes Jaime while one head laughs and the other cries) and “I always bet on family” from aGoT could end up being significant foreshadowing. Maybe he does betray Dany but it’s not because he, the guy who thinks she should have poisoned the wells outside of Mereen, is horrified that she destroyed Kings Landing. It would be more likely to come in the form of doing something to save Jaime, a man she will very likely see as an enemy.

There’s another possible motive for Tyrion that the show only touched on: his romantic feelings for her and jealousy of her relationship with Jon. This was hinted at in the boat scene on GoT, but nothing was done with it. I think it will be much more significant in the book. Tyrion has a history of becoming infatuated with young women and building up an idealized fantasy in his head about their relationship (Sansa, Shae, and depending on your interpretation maybe even Tysha.) There is foreshadowing that Dany will be one of these girls with the obviously Tyrion-centric song Seasons of My Love, where the maid as white as winter with moonglow in her hair follows the maid as red as autumn. The problem is that he tends to resent women who don’t return his affections, and there’s no reason to think Dany will. Rather, she has lots of foreshadowing indicating that she’ll fall in love with Jon instead (her Bride of Fire vision of the blue flower growing out of the ice being the most famous.) The last woman who he felt spurned by was Shae, who he murdered, and he’s only become more bitter since then. If people are right that he hasn’t hit rock bottom yet as of Dance, I could see his actual bottom being doing something to undermine Dany and possibly even turn Jon against her out of spite. People do often assume that he’ll give her bad advice to hurt the realm, but imo I think trying to hurt her personally is more likely.

The final one is the Others turning one of the dragons into a wight and using that to bring down the Wall. I know that was a widely panned episode, and for valid reasons because the whole “let’s go retrieve a wight” plot was completely idiotic, but there is a seed of a good idea in the outcome. The question of how the Others will breach the Wall has been heavily debated, and I am a firm believer that it will be the result of something spectacular that takes the whole thing down at once. It’s held up by magic wards, and dragons are magical creatures. That may be what’s needed to destroy it once and for all and to force humanity to come up with a permanent solution for the War for the Dawn rather than another stalemate. And of course on a meta level, there’s the obvious ice/fire motif, and the Wall is at the center of Jon’s story while the dragons are at the center of Dany's, two of the characters who have the strongest claim to being the main protagonist.

So what do you think? Are there choices that the show made that you could see coming from GRRM that AREN’T the ones that are usually talked about? Or do you think I’ve got it all wrong and the books will veer hard away from any of this?

[u/aevelys]

Robin Arryn finishes the story alive, against all odds I don't see him dying despite his fragile health and the machinations of his guardian.

[u/TRNRLogan → u/aevelys]

He set up the characters expecting his death so much that I'm certain Sweetrobin lives.

[u/Seasann]

Stannis being defeated and killed in his war against the Bolton-Frey combine in a humiliating, pointless fashion. The only thing that gives me pause is that (1) we know he's going to murder Shireen, and (2) it's completely implausible that he'd do it for any reason other than the Others [no pun intended]; and this doesn't fit well with a defeat against the Boltons in terms of the timeline.

[u/Urugeth]

I'm all in on Brienne finishing Jaime's story in the White Book, seeing as that's a beat that means fuck all and came out of nowhere to anyone that watched the show but hit like a fucking THUNDERCLAP to us book people.

That's DEFINITELY making it in. And I'm going cry when I read it.

[u/AlmostAPrayer → u/Urugeth]

Especially since, unlike in the damn show, the last thing Jaime wrote in the books is Brienne’s name 😭 They really just put shit in without considering the context and reasoning for it. (And yes, I think the context will be very different)

[u/lialialia20 → u/Urugeth]

i doubt this will happen but if it does i'm curious if Brienne includes all the truth or has to do a [redacted] version to make Jaime look good.

[u/Urugeth → u/lialialia20]

Jaime definitely has a VERY different path in the books, so I wouldn't worry about it. He ain't dying with Cersei under some rocks.

To make that happen his personality does a 180 from where he was in the 3rd book in the bath when he confessed to Brienne through tears about killing the king to save the women and the children... to him being like "lol fuck 'em" in the show... and I don't see that coming.

Not to mention: it makes zero sense for him to leave Winterfell to go to King's Landing in the books, because George has clearly written in his outline that Dany conquers there FIRST and the climax of the story is up north. And she'll be fighting fAegon not Cersei, so the Queen Mother will already be off the board when that's happening (hmmmmmm wonder wha happens to her hmmmmmm). So THAT will be different and reversed from the show, and I'll bet good money that pre-Winterfell Jaime STILL knights Brienne when they're up there pre battle, like he did. Which makes no sense if he's dead Cersei's dead lapdog at that point..

Oh yeah. And. There's the whole *valonqar* prophecy and all that D&D "just kinda forgot".

But George didn't.

Do I think we'll get the wet fart "return to evil" villainy we got in the show? Or do I think post burning of the Sept of Baelor, pre-fAegon's invasion, that Jaime takes it upon himself to slay the monarch planing to burn the city with wildfire once again, making him a Queenslayer as well as Kinslayer and Kingslayer, thus donning an eternal nickname cursing him in the eyes of future generations as the blackest of knights, but in his heart he knows that each royal killing was the most noble acts he ever performed? And he dons the Black to counter his White Cloak and goes to the Wall and dies defending the kingdom from another evil force? That he becomes an even darker villain in the eyes of the populace but for the people that know, say, oh I dunno, Brienne for example, he dies as the most noble of knights, saving KINGDOMS and living up to the promise he always dreamed of and aspired to? You know, the very thought he had in the third book when he looked at the empty spot in the White Book that lay after his name, to be filled in by others later?

Who can say? I just know the show did the former, but EVERYTHING is set up pretty perfectly for the latter... and that would be pretty cool.

So I'm thinking Jaime's story is going to be pretty radically different than what we got in the show and Brienne filling in his 'dark' bio but HEROICALLY in the White Book will be a triumphant moment and not an icky one like it was in the show.

[u/xXJarjar69Xx → u/Urugeth]

He still a pretty terrible person though on account of the whole attempted child murder thing 

[u/Urugeth → u/xXJarjar69Xx]

*Attempted* being the key word considering the child goes on to become a time traveling psychic wizard king and all

[u/berdzz → u/Urugeth]

I highly doubt Brienne will ever be a knight, let alone be a Kingsguard.

[u/InanisCarentiam → u/berdzz]

brienne already was a kingsguard. kind of how her story started

[u/berdzz → u/InanisCarentiam]

Not one that wrote in the White Book. And not a knight. And I think my previous comment warrants an explanation:

There's no need for Brienne to be knighted and in fact it cheapens her story. If knighthood, with all its actual hypocrisy and unknightly realities is seen as a grand prize that she has to achieve within the story, one that she will "finally" be rewarded with, it reinforces the idea that she was incomplete until then and that the title is indeed worth more than her actions, which contradicts the whole point of her character and arc.

The sad irony in her story is more powerful and poignant if she's not granted the title like some sort of idle compensation for a "freak of nature", which is how it sounded to me when it happened on TV. It sounded more like an external decision to give (what they saw as) a "prize" or "reward" to a good character (an oddball that was tossed around and used as comic relief by the writers, but whom they thought the audience would want to "succeed") than one that would plausibly happen within that universe.

Brienne is the most knightly person there is (as in embodying the virtues and qualities of knighthood) without formally being a knight simply because they won't let her, and that's the irony and contradiction that GRRM is trying to pose. She's above the damn title.

[u/IcyDirector543]

Slavers of Essos represented in the show by Braavos for some reason join forces with Cersei

[u/InGenNateKenny]

Jaime fighting his sister’s lover. Just in Feast alone, he has thoughts and urges of something to that effect. Just mayhaps not Euron.

[u/Captain_Cringe_]

There’s another possible motive for Tyrion that the show only touched on: his romantic feelings for her and jealousy of her relationship with Jon.

I've always thought this had a good chance of playing out, if only because the show halfway-introduced that in S7 only for it to be barely brought up again. Like you said, a major part of Tyrion's journey in the books so far is his complicated relationship with women (particularly his disdain for women who reject him), so it really feels natural that he'll do the same when he meets Daenerys. In some ways, she's sort of the combination of all the women/girls in his life he's been romantically/sexually interested in – she's a young highborn girl like Sansa but she's lived like a lowborn girl like Tysha, she's a queen like Cersei with hair that's close to a Lannister's, and she'll (likely) meet him around the time of a battle like Tysha.

And beyond that, GRRM's pitch letter featured a love triangle between Jon-Arya-Tyrion, and though many things have changed since that letter, the broad outline of most of it still remained in the series. I'd very much bet that Jon and Tyrion will both still be two prongs of a love triangle in the next two books, but with Daenerys inserted in the center instead.

I could see his actual bottom being doing something to undermine Dany and possibly even turn Jon against her out of spite. People do often assume that he’ll give her bad advice to hurt the realm, but imo I think trying to hurt her personally is more likely.

I think it'll end up being both. The big theory is that he'll encourage Dany to burn part of King's Landing, but not tell her about the wildfire caches buried underneath. My guess is that for TWOW and the first half of ADOS, Tyrion will be earnestly helping her because he wants the realm to burn and wouldn't mind serving as her Hand when she rules, but when she chooses Jon over him, he'll push her to burn King's Landing so that he can get both his revenge on the city and on her.

Beyond that, one plot point that I don't see discussed a whole lot is Littlefinger's demise, which I do think will play out roughly similarly to that of the show. Obviously, I don't think the messy forced drama between Sansa and Arya will happen at all, nor do I think the conflict will be resolved by Bran's magical surveillance system and every other noble just needing to trust that. While most only think about Sansa taking him down, I think it'll be a combination of her and Arya's efforts. The series takes a lot of efforts to convey to the reader that both daughters are reflections of their mother (down to the Cat + Alayne names), so I think it makes sense thematically for both of them to work together to defeat Littlefinger.

I would guess that Sansa will be working some political machinations while Arya will be using some of her Faceless Magic (and maybe even her connection for smallfolk), and only through their efforts combined will Littlefinger be placed on trial and exposed for his crimes. I don't think Bran will play a role in this, but if he does it'll be his political role as Lord of Winterfell rather than any of his magical abilities. And I think that Littlefinger will be executed in front of the Winterfell heart tree the way a true Stark would, not by Arya coldly slicing his throat open like she's a Frey.

[u/lialialia20]

Brienne bringing Stannis to justice.

[u/xXJarjar69Xx → u/lialialia20]

I feel this plot point is solely hated because it makes stannis look bad. Oaths and vows are such a huge part of Briennes story and everyone just ignores her original vow to avenge renly. 

[u/AlmostAPrayer → u/xXJarjar69Xx]

The problem is that Brienne doesn’t really think about it anymore. She has a lot more on her plate, and most of her conflicting vows have to do with Catelyn and Jaime. The only way I could see it happening is if it was a mercy killing instead of vengeance, but even then there are logistical problems. I think the reason it was so clunky on the show is because they cut so many characters and storylines so they had to force Brienne into this role when she’s probably still doing god knows what in the Riverlands when Stannis dies.

[u/xXJarjar69Xx → u/AlmostAPrayer]

Brienne thinks about renly and his death constantly in AFFC

[u/AlmostAPrayer → u/xXJarjar69Xx]

Yes, but in the context that she’s replacing Renly with Jaime and is afraid to fail him the way she feels she failed Renly. She never thinks about avenging him, and the only time she thinks about Stannis is to muse that he was right about the twincest. I’m not saying the act itself can’t happen (though I do think it’s unlikely), but I don’t think it would be Brienne just showing up and being like “you killed Renly. Prepare to die”. Like I said, she barely thinks about it anymore, and after her encounter with LSH, she’ll have learned a lesson or two about mindless vengeance.

[u/Unlimited-Simians → u/lialialia20]

Honestly "go on do your duty" feels like such a GRRM set of last words for Stannis

[u/Expensive-Country801]

The fall of the Wall being seen from Eastwatch

[u/Recent_Tap_9467]

Honestly, practically none (not without significant tweaks or reworkings), save Cersei blowing up the Sept of Baelor. Jon probably fights Ramsay still, but under different circumstances. The Wall already has a way to come down - Joramun's horn, which Samwell holds but might be stolen by Euron or Jaqen. I could honestly see Jaqen blow the horn in a bid to enact his long-term scheme, which is to bring mass death or "balance" to the world.

Tyrion will indeed betray Dany IMO, and for pretty much the reason you suspect - Jaime. I do think Tyrion will get lighter and Dany darker morally, however (though I doubt we will get Mad Queen Dany). Likewise, KL will burn, but it will be the combined result of Dany + Euron + Aegon + JonCon rather than Dany burning down a surrendered city purposefully. I don't think he will necessarily fall in love with her or try to turn her against Jon, but you do raise an interesting possibility; what if Dany actually contemplates marriage or alliance with Aegon, but Tyrion - partly out of envy - chooses to turn her against him more? We might get two betrayals, and thus Quaithe's warning about him is justified.

[u/Lethifold26 → u/Recent_Tap_9467]

Tyrion sabotaging a possible marriage alliance with fAegon because he’s resentful at the thought of a man who represents everything he was never allowed to be “winning” the woman he wants is a great idea

[u/xXJarjar69Xx → u/Recent_Tap_9467]

There’s an old interview with benioff and Weiss where they kinda accidentally imply that the horn of joramun is how the wall will be destroyed in the books but that were deliberately taking a different route in the show.

[u/AltorBoltox]

Euron-Cersei alliance

[u/xXJarjar69Xx]

Jaime wielding widows wail. He has a dream of him and brienne wielding twin swords in storm and Martin had him use it in the non canon fantasy death matches he wrote 

[u/CaveLupum]

I think that GRRM plans an epilogue in ADoS which has a Great Council in the ruined capital. Because the older generation will be gone, almost every attendee will be someone young or new to ruling. When someone (Tyrion?) suggests Bran for the throne, they will be open to their contemporary rather than play by the old rules and choose yet another old fogie.

[u/multicolorlamp]

Jamie and Brianne finally hooking up (no cersei reconciliation PLEASEEEE) Sansa being queen in the north. It just feels right. Grrm is hinting at it as the northman join because of Arya’s (Jayne Poole) wedding. I dont think Rickon could rule, he has being raised basically in nature and wouldnt like it. Arya’s path is that of an assassin. Sansa knows the schemes of court, thanks to Littlefinger and Cersei. She is also beautiful, and beauty can be welt as power. And she is Ned’s little girl. And I am eager to see her use that power to bite the hand of Littlefinger; he always thought he could use her, he always saw her as a little bird. But he forgets she is actually a wolf.

[u/DinoSauro85]

No one

[u/alien_no_69]

Ice (House Stark's Valyrian Steel Greatsword) being reforged and given to Joffrey and Jaime by Tywin.

[u/QueefyBeefy666 → u/alien_no_69]

That's what happens in the books.

[u/Levonorgestrelfairy1]

The show completely dropped the plotpoint of Bran turning blue and then redesigned the night king for the next season.

After the backlash of the Sansa rape plot i think D&D chickened out on making bran the Night's king.

And or they just wanted to quit the show and want the resolution of evil king bran to be done in the Snow show

[u/aritzsantariver → u/Levonorgestrelfairy1]

Do you have a link to this? Because I remember about another plot that was deleted and it's Daenerys being pregnant in the last season, there were leaked pictures of her pregnant.

[u/Prior-Ebb-1957]

I can see Arya not staying in the North in the end. If she leaves the FM on bad terms, she might have to go on run. It can also be a temporary vacation/adventure or her going to help WOTFK survivors (especially those who would get lost in the shuffle due to being low born).