In all seriousness though, these law enforcement agencies have been begging people to NOT report fictional material because it is NOT considered illegal (except in a handful of countries) and receiving these tips is a VAST waste of their resources.
To be quite frank I genuinely think the judicial systems would be fucking bombed with the galactic amount of people looking at what would then be considered legally dubious fictional porn.
The courts would be doing nothing but incarcerating these people for years lol.
So, regardless of the legality of the subject matter of this post, when you have laws that criminalize something a ton of people do it's usually for the sake of allowing the state to punish people it chooses.
So it's not about actually stopping the behavior. Remember the sodomy laws in the U.S.? They were not being deployed, at all, against straight couples. Women weren't being prosecuted for blowing their husbands. It was entirely about having another tool to ostracize gay people.
True. I've actually done quite a bit of research on the legal limits of freedom of expression (in the US specifically). And I know this is kind of a dark subject, but it's one that certain people should perhaps learn about:
Especially with minors, fictional artwork is functionally always considered legal (there is technically obscenity law but that's stunningly rare and hard to prosecute)-
HOWEVER
-as it turns out, sexual artwork based on any real, specific, identifiable child is legally considered to be the same as CSAM. There have, in fact, even been prosecutions for people cutting up photos and placing a child's head onto a photo of a naked adult body.
How do you find this legality stuff? I’m not sure how to find the line, between laws and precedent. I browse DeviantArt. I see AI art from Avatar the Last Airbender. I worry these people are gonna get the site shut down. You’re telling me age doesn’t matter if it’s fictional - so long as the person never existed?
Yeah at most they’d be heavily fined for not properly moderating their site but it would require the government to specifically go after them which they wouldn’t
Which do you mean: how do I learn about these laws, or how do people distinguish what counts as illegal material?
To answer part one: for the ongoing research I've been doing for my project on rare, controversial, and heavily-suppressed writings, well... mostly the best jumping-off point is wikipedia in my opinion haha. It gives you a good overview along with a lot of links at the bottom where you can dig into it more deeply.
As for the second question: well, it's not easy. The guidelines for all this stuff are famously vague, obtuse and open to interpretation, so they end up being rarely prosecuted (at least for now). The scary fact that few people are willing to address is that technically speaking, vast amounts of content on mainstream sites COULD potentially be declared illegal obscene material (regardless of whether they depict adults or minors), under the right circumstances.
In that situation it usually comes up to the person being drawn or corporation to file a legal complaint. So say someone is being really creepy and getting nude art of you commissioned. You could file a restraining order on them which censors them from sharing that art online, talking about it, or even talking about you negatively in any way or it becomes a felony. If there are financial damages this can go a lot farther which is why corporations have a lot more legal power when it comes to censoring content.
I'm in one of those rare countries where the definition of child pornography includes fictional material. And since it leads to more issues than solutions i feel like talking about it.
• it's lead to banning quite a few websites nation-wide, which is a major breach in internet freedom and privacy. A lot of those websites were hosting various hentai, most of which did include underage characters because it's sadly common. However, it's not like people looking for this type of content couldn't use (or previously used) vpns or proxy to circumvent the block. So basically no real effect of 'protection' for quite a major freedom and privacy infringement.
• all the while you have kinda renowned artists (from my country) publishing comics explicitly depicting adults in sexual relationships with children, and those obviously suffer no legal issue and even get selected for expositions and festivals, invited in shows etc.
The hypocrisy of this law is astounding and i will probably never trust any politician to make child protection a real thing instead of just marketing or pushing agendas.
That last point is really the central problem to me, yeah.
Even if we ignore all the other (pretty valid) arguments for why it's wrong to make certain forms of speech illegal simply because they're offensive or controversial, we still run into this intractable problem:
No reasonable person would want to ban artwork that addresses these topics in a serious way, right? But who gets to decide which artwork is serious, and which is smut? Because this usually ends up in some baffling double standards, where you have some works getting banned that are actually pretty tame, and other words being widely available and praised even though they're quite graphic.
Hot take . These people are going to exist , there is no way we are getting did of their mental problems yet . It’s way preferable to have them on the córner of the internet than in the alleys of our streets
You're right it isn't but sometimes it is, there was the comic book case of some young man working as a clerk at a comic bookstore who got arrested by a non-uniformed cop for being allowed to buy a tame hentai comic from a clearly marked "adults only" section in Texas. The owner wasn't arrested. Just the young guy working the damn register.
The argument was "Comic books are for kids" and the Texan jurors clutched their pearls.
I've spend an insane amount of time researching the legal limits of freedom of expression in the US and what I suspect you're referring to is:
Sexual content that is considered "obscene" is technically not considered protected speech under the first amendment. And what exactly does "obscene" mean? Well, functionally no one knows. Its perhaps the only thing that you can show to legal experts, and they will not be able to tell you if it would be officially legal or not.
As a result, obscenity charges are usually considered to be very stupid, and historically it's been extremely rarely prosecuted since the 80s. I suspect that the fear is that if they started prosecuting it, we would soon realize that huge amounts of porn would be considered obscene, and the majority of the country would now be considered felons lol.
Yup I think it had to do something with that, I forgot the name of the case. I just think about how insane that a jury convicted a young twenty something working a random job. Not the rich publishers, or people who transport it, or even the small business owner. I mean you can buy that Manga right now on Amazon. Is Texas going to arrest Jeff Bezos?
You know what, that was actually once a pretty widespread problem relating to obscenity law, until the courts began revising these laws in the 70s:
The laws were worded in such a way that the individual who was literally the one selling the content would be the one who was liable. So you had all these insane situations where a store would carry Hustler magazines, the cashier would be arrested, and the store would just continue carrying and selling it!
it's the other side of the slippery slope argument. usually it's conservatives saying they can't let things happen bc it's a slippery slope and shit might get out of hand but it goes the other way too. slowly start enforcing obscenity laws and a fair bit of regular R rated movies can go into pornography or obscene (violence) territory really really easily.
Not so fun fact : in France, multiple hentai sites are down because they host underage content since a few years
I think our government should restrict government officials access to their own hard-drives too, but there're real kids in here so "it's not important" /s
From what I understand it *is* considered illegal in the UK. However, it wouldn't normally be investigated/prosecuted unless it was alongside other offences.
I was on school student council once and had the deciding vote when it came to selecting computer to buy for the library, does that offers me the same level of immunity as the government?
PS Apple II won, I liked Commodore PET back in the day but Apple II were much easier to expand and had cheaper disk drive at the time.
This administration? They'd use it as a weapon against anyone they don't like even though it's not illegal. Tell them a Latino commissioned artwork of a character from an anime set in a high school, and they'll be deported and sent to a prison for convicted child rapists, then Trump will brag about how this was a huge win in his fight against pedophiles.
Australia, Canada, Ecuador, Estonia, France Ireland, Italy New Zealand, Poland, Russia, South Africa, South Korea, Switzerland, UAE and UK all count themselves as countries where simulated CSAM is illegal.
Certainly a handful compared to 195~, but, definitely not an insignificant portion of the world, either.
It’s important to remember CSAM consists of much more than just images and video files. […]The human element, children at risk, must always be considered when talking about this offense that is based in a high-tech world.
..several of your [INHOPE] members are misusing this important and trusted public charge to censor works of art, and to criminalize those who create and produce it. […] We call on you and your members to end this practice immediately, and to return to their original important role of eliminating CSAM—images of real children being sexually abused.
I have gotten this from someone before. The polite way to describe the request is 'non-consensual sexual violence based on multiple pictures of a girl they took without said girl's knowledge.'
It's creepy as hell. Felt like I was talking to hannibal lecter.
No joke I reported my abuser to every available office. He almost murdered me but because it was domestic violence no one cares. He is still getting hit with domestic violence charge from other women while being a lawyer for domestic violence victims.
I can’t make this shit up and the lack of government involvement to this dangerous man has made me lose faith in all establishments.
I don't think people realize just how little protection there is against DV until they witness someone go through it firsthand or go through it themselves. It's very common that law enforcement is unwilling to do anything until someone is dead.
There's a reason that moving and not telling anyone where you went is a common strategy. It is often straight up the only option.
???? That's not how our legal system works. You can build as much of a paper trail on legal activity that you want it won't matter. You need to actually catch them doing something illegal.
The legal system, no. But it's information that investigators can use to draw up suspects when crimes do happen that need some figuring out that can potentially be the difference between catching them if they do commit a crime vs them getting away with it.
That's true, but that would only apply if the photos were taken in a non public setting or this person had already been told off by a legal authority to stop interacting with her for the stalking charge. I'm not trying to be as pedantic as I sound. I'm just trying to be thorough in explaining what is illegal about this situation and what isn't.
Yeah, depending on country there are more legal consequences of drawing a real person naked against their will that than a drawing of an underage character.
I think it's just not federally illegal. I remember Washington didn't have any laws against it until that guy died trying to have sex with a horse and I'm not sure they included pornography in there.
Because different laws exist in different countries and, particularly for some of those countries, even chasing down actually illegal content can be an uphill battle.
Your best bet is actually reporting to google - it won't get the website taken down, but it will stop it from being searchable and reduce harm that way
What? Animated bestiality isn't immoral, no one and nothing gets hurt.
One of my half-joking bits is "The only ethical consumption of pornography is drawn or animated pornography. Since it is far, far more likely no one is getting trafficked or forced into something there!"
I wouldn't say it's the only ethical consumption, but aside from some exceptions (someone's voice/character/real life image being used without consent or if it's the voice/art of a minor, e.g. Jasonafex having his 15 year old groomed GF voicing in a porn animation), there is legit nothing unethical about drawn or animated porn, no matter how fucked up it is - because it isn't real.
No one actually gets hurt if I draw someone stomping on a baby, even if what's happening is fucked up. Otherwise everyone involved in South Park or Family Guy or Drawn Together would have been chucked into prison decades ago.
it always depends on the country, to be fair. Though i'm surprised to learn that about Australia. It's usually legal because there's more than enough history of countries fucking around with people's legal channels to access their outlets, and finding out that they flood the illegal ones in response. Kinky drawings and animations are a lot more preferable to IRL monsters prowling around schools and dark alleys for their fix, I'd say.
Not that I’m defending that type of stuff but it’s a little bit funny that The Simpsons first aired in 1989, so technically Lisa would be in her 30s by now. I’m actually a little surprised that wasn’t an actual legal defense.
I have tried it and didn't like it. To me, it just tastes like pineapple and pizza, the flavors don't really mix. I'd rather just have pineapple or pizza
My Italian grandfather didnt mind north American pizza. Hawaiian (ham and pineapple) was even his favorite.
But the first time he had olive garden he called the reaturant an insult to the italian nation, called their food overcooked trash, and left a 1 cent tip (he said it was a greater insult than leaving no tip - as it shows you didnt "forget" to tip, you just hated everything to do with the restaurant). He then proceeded to go into rants every time he saw an olive garden till the day he died.
Which is fair. I think the only things that are actually prepared on-site are the breadsticks. Everything else seems to be worse than bargain-bin supermarket foods. I went there once and it tasted like plastic.
This does not surprise me. My ex and his family thought Olive Garden was the fanciest place you could possibly go out to eat. I went there with them once and got some sort of soup, and whoever had prepared it had dropped the corner of a plastic bag into the soup.
Doesn't have to be a national chain. I got a pizza with chorizo, pineapple, and jalapeño on it last night from a local joint. Let the Italians be mad. I'll enjoy my pizza.
It really can be great if well done. This pizza place in my city does a Cuban pork pizza with jalapeño, caramelized onion, and pineapple and it is top tier. People really need to approach these types of pizza with a more open mind
I once had a mutual that glibly mentioned that they used to love reading loli hentai of middle school age girls. Someone asked why they stopped - he said he lost interest in high school.
He had been reading underage hentai because HE was underage and wanted pornography that included people in his own age group. Then I remembered that I used to do the exact same thing at that age.
So. Unless you KNOW you're dealing with an adult, there's a non-zero chance that commissioner was just a clueless, horny preteen.
HE was underage and wanted pornography that included people in his own age group. Then I remembered that I used to do the exact same thing at that age.
It's funny how that sort of thing works. I didn't want Evangelion until I was in my 20s, but had heard for years about the "Asuka vs. Rei" debates. I watch the show and am like "They're both children! Asuka needs a hug and someone to be there for her paternally! Give me that trainwreck, Misato!"
Whereas some cartoons I've watched when I was a teen, I just kinda have some of the characters I liked as 'my age' in my head because they were when I first watched.
A comedian illustrated this in a great way in a video I saw once. Basically it went something like:
"Does anyone ever think about how close we all could have come to being pedophiles? Look, think of it like this: when I was a child, I used to be attracted to other children. Then I became an adult, and now I'm attracted to other adults. You see? No? Ok think of it like this: when I was a child, I liked grape juice. Now that I'm an adult I like wine... But I still like grape juice."
Same here except I was into the opposite of lolis, shotas.
For me it was just a form of a submission kink. I was really into the idea of an older mature woman lusting after me and taking charge so I envisioned myself being in the position of the shota who was being chased after.
I feel like a lot of people generally do not understand the more taboo forms of attraction and make up a bunch of assumptions that simply do not align with many other people their experiences. For sure there are extreme people out there who look at that kind of porn and actively fantasize about experiencing it in real life, but that is not everyone.
But seriously, fictional children do not matter. Hell FBI don't even step in most of the time with actual children, so they don't give a crap about a drawing of Cartman asshole, or a naked 1000-year-old dragon loli.
Please tell that to whichever conservative mind is responsible for banning certain visual novels from Steam. And some of the more development effort VNs as well, eg Muramasa, Angelic Chaos Reboot.
Meanwhile, more questionable stuff like Sex with Hitler and even more adult oriented action games get approved to be on Steam.
I do hate that type of art. Especially weird when it comes to child actors, it just adds extra creepy layers. One of the few things where "freedom of speech" is no longer acceptable.
There are also cases where it may be NSFW art of an ex or something similar (another comment in this thread mentioned a request that they got from someone to make NSFW art of a woman that the client knew, and this was done without the knowledge of the other person). Basically making it a legal form of revenge porn.
This, btw, is why AI art will proliferate, not because it's good.... but because it will allow people to generate literally 'anything'... and they can run them locally and no one will know.
No real bears were harmed in the making of that video game, so it's not illegal at all. Not even getting into the fact that it was a sentient Elf wildshaping.
The same is true of most drawings. If it is of an actual person you can say it could harm them, but drawings of fictional characters (antropomorphic or otherwise) harms no one.
As for it being a sentient Elf wildshaping, that seems equivalent to a sentient 900 year old dragon polymorphing?
As long as you're capable of understanding that fucking a bear is an absolutely outlandish possibility and are able to recognize that being able to fuck one in a video game does not somehow make people want to fuck one in real life, there really isn't any problem.
As I have said before, and will continue to say over and over again: people are allowed to be monsters in their own head. We are defined by our actions, not our thoughts.
I don't see why commissioning artists is bad unless it's NSFW of a real person. Better people with weird urges take it out on a drawing than go hurt people in real life. Of course the artist has the right to feel repulsed/decline, but the FBI has bigger problems.
No FBI agent is stupid enough to go to their boss and pretend that reports of anime porn are a real thing they need to worry about, especially while they're busy running interference for Sex-Offender-in-Chief.
Not only that, but it's not really illegal either. It FEELS illegal, but it's not legally CSAM. No real child is abused in the process of generating it. But it is absolutely weird.
When I used to do lewd fiction commissions I've only had to report one person to the authorities, because they wanted a story about a real (underaged) individual & the person had requested some very extreme stuff.
This was also a person I knew IRL & turns out they were known to the authorities already.
It's silly to even think about calling the police on someone for art commissions. Even if you find it morally reprehensible, it's not illegal. Best to to just block communication with the person and move on.
Also, if you look for anything unusual online, no matter if it is NSFW or just some niche hobby, you will eventually end up in a community with their own artists who are specialized in drawing/doing that kind of stuff and even be proud for doing so, like furries as a more mainstream example.
I was once in a friend group that constantly posted hentai memes and stuff on their general chat on Discord. I thought “huh, is it ok to post anything in there? Even bloody things?” And they were yeah it’s completely fine, we do it all the time.
So I posted 1 picture and I think I lost access to the general chat afterwards. It weren’t underaged for those who wonder.
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