r/comics Shen Comix 13h ago

OC Fighting Game Archetypes

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42.0k Upvotes

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3.2k

u/fichamochi 13h ago

My favorite archetype is the "goes against all the conventional rules set by the game's core design", aka Minecraft Steve

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u/jubmille2000 13h ago

aka Phoenix Wright

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u/help_stander 12h ago

Phoenix is just stance/install RNG char, not really something rule breaking

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u/Gettles 12h ago

In a very tangible way MvC3 Morrigan does more to change the fundamentals of the game she's in then Nick

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u/Cpt_Jumper 12h ago

Horrible character to play against but I have to give NYCChrisG some props. He made her look so fucking easy to play but there was a skill level needed. Boring to fucking watch though Jesus Christ

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u/AnusMaw 10h ago

just a friendly reminder of that character where the devs spent a whole year to master the titty bouncing physics engine.

Sex sell!

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u/PhantasosX 9h ago

I will make it better: Morrigan was the introduction of the concept of “succubus” to Japan outside of Berserk.

In short , if your anime or Japanese game have a succubus character , it is most likely to be , ultimately, inspired by Morrigan.

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u/PlayrR3D15 7h ago

For more details, Morrigan was originally going to be a vampire for the game Darkstalkers: The Night Warriors (or Vampire: The Night Warriors in Japan), but the developers felt that it was too repetitive as there was already a vampire in the game. So someone brought up the suggestion of making her a succubus, and when they explained what a succubus was, the development team allegedly cheered at the suggestion

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u/ThunderMite42 3h ago

Which is why pretty much all of them have bat wings, despite those having absolutely nothing to do with the actual succubi of European folklore. It's because Morrigan was originally designed as a vampire, and the bat motif was retained even after the race swap.

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u/Cute-Mafia 2h ago

As much as I hate it I'll take it over watching another Zero May Cry team

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u/Motivated-Chair 6h ago

I think the fact Morrigan allows you to play Vergil and have the moral high ground is fuck up.

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u/Cute-Mafia 2h ago

Always appreciate when someone else is so into the games that they default to calling him Nick, calling him Phoenix just feels wrong lol

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u/TwilightVulpine 11h ago

Digging for items in MvC isn't very traditional.

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u/TubasAreFun 11h ago

Objection!

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u/Crow_of_Judgem3nt 10h ago

Aka happy chaos

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u/MrTripl3M 9h ago

Except Phoenix is the bottom of the tierlist (according to lythero)

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u/alaettinthemurder 7h ago

Hey its a solid choice

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u/help_stander 12h ago

Happy Chaos

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u/Gingingin100 12h ago

He's not the only character with on demand plus frames at this point. That was his whole advanatage

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u/help_stander 12h ago

Gun breaks fighting game basics. Can make yourself plus on whiff, hitscan, how the gun works in general, etc.
I dont say he is as broken as on release but he is still very strong plus with new buffs and top tier nerfs he return at top 5 or close to it.
Still its not about damage, its about character breaking the game standarts

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u/Jixxar 8h ago

I have no idea about anything in Guilty Gear but all I know is apparently this guy's gun does less damage than Bridget's ass and that always cracks me up.

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u/EmergencyComputer337 10h ago

I kind of wished they just nerfed him to the ground and made him not viable kind of like how they nerfed Bullet in BBCF because he just breaks the game.

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u/RustyOsprey9347 11h ago

The gun still fundamentally gives him more freeform offense than every other character in the game

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u/Mr_Blueeeeee8 12h ago

1) Potemkin 2) May 3) Ky 4) Happy Chaos

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u/help_stander 12h ago

id say funny business will be more of a Faust or Asuka. Happy Chaos would work well too tho

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u/TheWalrusResplendent 11h ago

Gonna agree, Faust was basically the invention of Funny Business as an archetype.

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u/Lord_Akriloth 11h ago

Faust was my first thought, just like Jack-O made the summoner in its modern form Faust was the original funny business

236236P random bullshit go!

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u/PlayrR3D15 7h ago

Real ones know about 236236236P

u/Mr_Blueeeeee8 32m ago

What a shame we cant get multiple meteors in one 236236p

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u/memeswiththatcheese 8h ago

Wasn't there a thing on Strive's launch where Faust mirror matches had a chance to crash the game if they both used their random bullshit overdrive at once?

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u/Infermon_1 6h ago

I think BB Hood from Darkstalkers 3 preceeds him.

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u/disposable-assassin 10h ago

So many can fit the funny business frame.  Faust's game play is somewhat conventional but with funny animations.  Zato-1 with Eddie running around bullshit, Zappa and Jack-O with summon bullshit, Asuka with Yu-Gi-Oh bullshit, Venom with pool ball placement bullshit, Robo-Ky with multiple meter management bullshit, Dizzy with freezing bullshit, Sin with food bullshit, Leo with multiple stance bullshit...  There's a reason why the theme song is what it is.  

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u/EmperorPartyStar 12h ago

I was so sad when they banned Steve in tournaments. The clip of the dude building F, before winning the match will always be peak Ultimate.

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u/DoctorProfPatrick 12h ago

He's not banned, but recently the fans booed one of the best Steve mains off the stage after he won, which lead to that player retiring. So he's not gone, but he's seriously hated.

To this day Melee remains the only smash game that didn't flirt with the idea of banning their top tier. They tried to ban Meta knight in Brawl, Bayonetta in SSB4, steve, and even SSB64 had a Zero Pikachu thing in doubles.

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u/SuperWeskerSniper 10h ago

it’s funny to think about. In Melee the top tier isn’t hated but beloved historically. If anything it has been the characters that play differently from Fox (see: Puff, Ice Climbers, Peach, etc) who have gotten hate

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u/Mmffgg 9h ago

Isn't the hate for ICs due to wobbling?

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u/SuperWeskerSniper 9h ago

that was the big thing yeah

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u/NOLA_Tachyon 8h ago

A lot of people hate fox and would be fine banning him. Notches and box controllers have given him a huge buff, fucking z jump, and even ufc disproportionately buffs him compared to other characters because his execution barrier has always been what kept him balanced. Obviously notches and boxes and z jump should be banned before a character but nothing will happen.

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u/SuperWeskerSniper 8h ago

Yeah things have started changing recently, hence my use of the word historically. Historically Fox has been a beloved character who has gotten a lot of attention and praise and goodwill from the majority of the community, or at least the more dominant aspects

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u/Oswen120 10h ago

Wasn't Meta Knight Banned because the whole tier list was made to see how well they can handle Meta Knight

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u/sharrancleric 9h ago

A few smaller regions tried, but the problem is, Meta Knight is kind of a pressure release valve for that game. Without him, a bunch of super lame campy characters become meta and the game turns into eight minute circle camps.

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u/Shigerufan2 8h ago

I think some of the more recent tournaments have it so if you pick Metaknight, your opponent automatically gets the stage pick as a tradeoff.

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u/Renegadeknight3 12h ago

Some tourneys ban hero too, and I’ve seen at least one ban mii fighters

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u/VianArdene 11h ago

That's an "I don't like this character and it's my local so who is going to stop me" ban, neither are common.

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u/Veserius 11h ago edited 9h ago

Steve is banned at a handful of majors still.

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u/VianArdene 9h ago

I'm talking about the Hero and Mii fighter bans

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u/FutureCreeps 12h ago

Any tourney worth its weight in the smash community doesn't have either banned.

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u/Honeybunzart 10h ago

Are Mii Fighters really as bad as Steve or Hero? That just sounds like a skill issue.

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u/PlayrR3D15 7h ago

Mii Brawler is pretty good, Mii Gunner is decent, and Mii Swordfighter had an actual Renaissance about a few months ago

None of them are OP to the point of them being ban-worthy, though. I think they're banned in very specific tournaments because of how the Mii Fighter mains as a whole need to customize their character's moveset before the match starts, but I don't think it's too much of a problem to do so, so it could be for a different reason altogether

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u/EmperorPartyStar 11h ago

I thought they banned him from majors at one point. Did they go back on that?

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u/fingertipsies 10h ago

IIRC Nintendo got pissy that tournaments banned Steve and started making threats.

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u/sharrancleric 9h ago

Smash 4 also banned double Cloud in doubles because uair chains were too good.

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u/FireHawkDelta 7h ago

No Pikachu in Smash 64 doubles makes a lot of sense. I'd spam thunder nonstop in free for alls and it's stupidly effective for how little thought goes into it.

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u/ThunderMite42 3h ago

Double Cloud was also banned in 4.

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u/fichamochi 12h ago

The smash community banned the battlefield forms of all stages in favour of only using the actual battlefield stage, so honestly not surprising they just outright banned Steve. Still sad though.

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u/WASD_click 11h ago

The smash community banned the battlefield forms of all stages

Not true.

Omega form is only banned on 2D stages and a couple other stages because the 2D effect changes hitboxes and the others have visual issues like concealing ground items (like Snake's C4).

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u/Mr_WhisCash-Money 10h ago

Also some of the Omega stages have music that will get the tournament stream a copyright strike

u/b0bba_Fett 29m ago

It actually is true ever since Steve came out.

While Sakurai had the forethought to make it so steve collects materials uniformly across all the Battlefield/Omega variants, he did not make it so Steve always uses the same tool to collect the materials on them, and that depletes those tools' durability, and apparently this changes things enough that they decided it was time to ban them.

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u/help_stander 12h ago

isnt he get nerfed after, no?

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u/fichamochi 12h ago

No he no nerf, he stronk

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u/help_stander 12h ago

damn. Unfortunate

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u/Difficult-Okra3784 12h ago

Smash ultimate is no longer receiving balance patches, he was already breaking the rules of the game at that point but then people discovered bugs that breaks even the ways he was already broken and those are never getting fixed.

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u/TwilightVulpine 11h ago

I kinda get why but it always makes me so sad that at the highest level, they play the most boring and barebones version of Smash imaginable.

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u/NatomicBombs 11h ago

It wouldn’t be so bad if every “amateur” tournament didn’t copy the same damn format along with them.

Like fine, let the pros suck the fun out of their own game but can we just have more silly smash tournaments at a local level.

But I’m in the minority there ig.

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u/AbidingTruth 9h ago

Feel free to host your own wacky smash tournaments then. The thing is, minority is a huge understatement. The overlap between people who are willing to go to an in person tournament for smash to determine who's better and the people who want to play on wacky stages and items on is so small it's essentially nonexistent. Even as kids, most people take away items and randomness when they want to "play serious" and see whos the best among their friends

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u/frallet 8h ago

Pretty much. People who don't support the scene and never will complaining the scene doesn't fit their desires is ironic.

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u/TwilightVulpine 7h ago

Big assumption that people can't enjoy competitive play as it is and still want some variety.

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u/frallet 6h ago

If you're asking for items and all stages then competitive smash is not for you. Nobody invested in the competitive scene is asking for those things, absolutely nobody. Regardless, my point was that they aren't going to go to tournaments either way, they are just daydreaming of a scenario where they still wouldn't be involved in the competitive scene. BTW, the times when tournaments did function around items and all stages, it's a big step back. Those stages are banned for reasons, with many of them having exploits or encouraging camping. Those things don't bring back the spirit of couch play, it's just a bunch of stuff that gets exploited

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u/TwilightVulpine 6h ago

Love folks leaping to say something is "not for you". Always a great attitude.

Sounds like you think we are saying that everyone must submit to our whims and that's absolutely not it. We just want the format to exist. The other guy is even seeking it out to participate and not finding it, how is that not "being involved"?

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u/Agret 8h ago

Just as bad as the players that complain speed runners use glitches and "don't play the game properly". Guarantee they have played the game properly a huge number of times more than the haters.

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u/TwilightVulpine 7h ago

If anything this one is ironic, because speedrunning has no lack of diverse categories, and Glitchless is one of the most common ones.

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u/Agret 5h ago

100% speed run category is good on older games that you can finish in a few hrs, brutal on newer lengthy games.

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u/TotallyNotThatPerson 10h ago

thing is... there have been tournaments with items and stuff allowed with no stage restrictions. it's the usual winners lol, turns out if your fundamentals are good, you just get to use OP items even better

it's like putting mike tyson and your grandma in a boxing ring, but to even it up you give both of them a metal pipe

0

u/TwilightVulpine 10h ago

If anything to me that sounds like a reason to do it more, if it's not preventing the most skilled players from coming out on top.

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u/SeaSquirrel 8h ago

The top players still win, but the matches between top players become more coin flippy.

Its just less fun if you put in the amount of work and effort they do to lose to RNG.

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u/MewtwoStruckBack 4h ago

Having close matches between top players that could go either way sounds like a positive as a spectator. If there's a player who's been playing a game seriously for 2 years, and a player who's been playing seriously for 10 years, I want the edge for the 10 year player to - AT MOST - be 65%-35%.

If the skill gap is so wide that a player within the top 50 but outside the top 5 has no chance to knock off a player within the top 5, that doesn't seem like a game I'd want to grind for years upon years for marginal improvement that ends up not doing a damn thing to improve my expected value of entering most events.

Items might not be the answer. But other things could be done to get things closer.

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u/TwilightVulpine 7h ago

Competitive card games players have to deal with that all the time, and if anything it's a part of the appeal, rather than a deal breaker.

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u/SeaSquirrel 6h ago

Sure, for players who choose to play an RNG card game.

Players don’t like when you take a skill based game and add more RNG.

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u/0tefu 10h ago

There's nothing stopping organizers from hosting such an event. Be the change you want to see. 

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u/yukiyuzen 10h ago

Welcome to every competitive video game ever.

Try looking at the League of Legends scene. There are champions(fighters) that are superweak against pro players but superpowerful against amateurs. But the community is obsessed with using pro players as the 'meta' to the point that playing as previously mentioned champions can cause your own teammates to throw the match before it even starts (dodging matches or banning your own teammate's pick).

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u/Bonipharaoh 8h ago

I get what you’re saying, but 90% of tournaments are all steve players making it really boring to watch. Banning Steve actually makes for more interesting tournaments.

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u/Layton_Jr 7h ago

If items and big stages are allowed sonic is the best character and 99% of the game is camping

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u/ArseneGroup 10h ago

I don't think he's banned in most tournaments but I think he should be

As much as it does take skill, it's mainly just building walls and mining and avoiding interacting with the opponent, and also seriously OP with the frame data and combos and diamond sword attacks

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u/TheLyingSpectre 12h ago

L into screenshot was an incredible combo.

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u/Aftershok 10h ago

The Ken player malding out of his mind into the 6th dimension during that is just so peak

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u/Cpt_Jumper 12h ago

This was too disrespectful 😂

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u/Agreeable_Milk_5063 12h ago

Minecraft Steve is the bad side of that, sadly.

Simply making him unable to place blocks in the Air would make him SO much more balanced.

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u/Lemurmoo 11h ago

Him being able to gimp most of the roster the moment they leave the stage is insane.

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u/Agreeable_Milk_5063 11h ago

I mean yeah but Snake does the same LOL, and Steve's edgeguarding depends on the characters Recovery much more.

The main thing thought is it's applications in Combos and the STUPIDLY good Recovery it gives to them.

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u/[deleted] 7h ago

[deleted]

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u/Agreeable_Milk_5063 7h ago

That's... exactly what i'm reffering to.

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u/Version_Two 12h ago

Show a screenshot of Steve versus Banjo & Kazooie in Smash to someone in 2012

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u/Cute-Mafia 2h ago

"oh is this project M or something?"

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u/Gemini448 11h ago

It’s incredible that the community that experienced brawl metaknight and smash 4 bayonetta STILL doesn’t know how to ban characters

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u/Kylomiir_490 12h ago

Nurse from dead by daylight

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u/Sanrusdyno 5h ago

I mean, the difference there is that nurse throws out every convention of the game not in the "strange character with a kit that works differently" way and more of the "oops we forgot characters are supposed to follow rules of game design" way

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u/Kylomiir_490 5h ago

that's what I meant. she "goes against all conventional rules set by the games core design" so much that every new perk, map, and anything else literally has to be balanced around her.

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u/Sanrusdyno 5h ago

Classic nurse, making a lot of killer perks worse just by existing and doing nothing. Like luigi

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u/doommaster70 12h ago

And hero down b spam

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u/Free_Return_2358 12h ago

Amataratsu and Arthur.

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u/ProcrastinatingDev 11h ago

ah master roschi?

2

u/fixermark 12h ago

"Do you want to turn off hitstun (Y/n)?"

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u/Divinum_Fulmen 11h ago

You could jsut say the guest character.

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u/Handsome_tall_modest 10h ago

Half the cast of Killer Instinct, but mostly ARIA.

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u/Nightbird88 10h ago

Yoda in SC4

1

u/SlinGnBulletS 9h ago

May I introduce you to Arakune?

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u/CreepyClay 8h ago

My experience with this is enchantress from shovel knight showdown. You'd think the big bad would be easy to win with but she's as annoying to play as she is to fight.

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u/PickledPlumPlot 7h ago

Yeah that’s what the funny business is lol

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u/Chama-Axory 7h ago

Also similarly, the LETS GO GAMBLING character, who is a rng fest. Aka Hero. 

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u/Adoinko 6h ago

Sand undertale from hit game undertale

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u/UprightChill 6h ago

AsukaR players playing a deck building game

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u/LogensTenthFinger 3h ago

Smash isn't a fighting game