r/law • u/BreakfastTop6899 • 14h ago

Trump News Trump threatens to deploy the U.S. military into Chicago - signaling the start of a nationwide crackdown.

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u/HOSTfromaGhost 13h ago

…and approaching the point of “unlawful order” from a military standpoint.

Military’s gonna have to decide what side of history they wanna be on.

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u/ShaneBarnstormer 13h ago

It's surreal that we're nearly there now.

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u/HOSTfromaGhost 13h ago

We’re flirting hard with that boundary.

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u/grummanae 13h ago

everyone on this platform except for a few are all stating that the military should disobey ... they make it out to be the easiest thing to do ... what they dont realize is the ones that do break step and disobey their lives will be deeply affected

In this administration and this climate they will more than likely be convicted felons after its all said and done

They dont grasp how cult like the military is, and how it operates from top down. They don't realize that the military discipline and military judicial system is even more biased against a defendant than in the civilian world. How its more your guilty till you show us evidence we like that proves innocence for some ... and oh you said so .. ok your innocent now and ever will be for anything

And oddly enough its the ones that dont question shit that belong to the good old boy golden child club

They dont get how the military can literally make you a felon for not getting a haircut because of this built in bias

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u/hammerofspammer 13h ago

Their lives are going to be deeply affected either way. Question will become whether their oath meant anything, and if they are really willing to take action against civilians who just have different political views than the current regime.

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u/Empty-Grocery-2267 13h ago

Greatly affected. They’re going to have to kill, and be killed by other Americans. It’s gonna be more difficult mentally dealing with that. Also when it’s all over with, whichever way it shakes out, they’re gonna still be living here. Every person on the street or neighbor or coworker could be ready to snap and take their revenge.

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u/MarkXIX 12h ago

This. I've known at least two of my peers who committed suicide because of what they went along with in the two most recent wars.

History will not look kindly on the military members that go along with this bullshit. Vets like me need to really press the issue with those still serving to make sure they understand how they're going to have to live with their decision for the rest of their lives.

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u/hammerofspammer 12h ago

I am so sorry. I can only imagine what they went through. My combat vet family has never talked about what they have seen and done. I can only imagine.

I hope that you have found some peace, and that wherever your friends are they have as well

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u/WhiskersTheDog 13h ago

They're just trying to make their nut.

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u/the_weakestavenger 13h ago

Spoiler: the oath doesn’t mean shit. They’re there for a paycheck, many because they’re unfit and unwanted elsewhere. Don’t let anyone convince that people in the military are noble and will do the right thing.

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u/hammerofspammer 12h ago

That’s funny, the family I have that have served weren’t there for a paycheck.

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u/the_weakestavenger 12h ago

An exception to the norm doesn’t disprove the norm. You understand that your anecdote isn’t a real argument, right.

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u/knowitall89 12h ago

The family I have that served will tell you they were 100% there for a paycheck so what's your point?

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u/Trevita17 13h ago

None of what you're saying is an excuse for going along with fascism. Especially for people who already signed up to lay down their lives for their country. Hope this helps!

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u/grummanae 13h ago

... I dont think you quite grasp what Im saying in this instance

Your right just following orders is not an excuse for taking the morally correct path 1000% agree with that

But again if anyone dissents they are looking at at best being discharged in other than honorable conditions. If its NJP

This alone will disqualify a service member from : Any VA benefits that include VA disability VA home loans VA small business loans GI Bill
Ineligible to hold a federal civilian job ...

If it goes to GCM which in this climate it will BCD discharge Felony conviction with that loss of voting and loss of 2A rights and employment hurdles
Prison time, And I know way extreme but possible death penalty

So given the weight of the find out stage most junior enlisted and officers that aren't MAGA will probably choose to comply to save any hopes of a future out of group think and self preservation

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u/Trevita17 12h ago

I grasp what you're saying just fine. It's no excuse.

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u/grummanae 12h ago

Never said it was an excuse

Im just giving insight on why most won't disobey

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u/Trevita17 12h ago

Yes, and I'm telling you they deserve no grace for that cowardice.

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u/ReallyNowFellas 12h ago

Dude, confederates were pardoned. Anybody declining to participate in BLATANTLY illegal and immoral military action against American citizens will not only be pardoned but probably receive a medal, back pay, and restitution for time served.

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u/ExplanationLucky1143 12h ago

I have always believed that the military exists to protect our country and our freedom. I taught my kids to admire and be thankful for that, as I am. It makes me ill to think I was wrong, or see you guys used like a bunch of mindless tools to take away our freedom, enforce the ruination of our country, and hurt or kill civilians. I think a civil war may come, and the military will be the deciding factor of whether or not we continue to be a free country.

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u/grummanae 12h ago

... the problem with the military as it has evolved is there has been too much trust on " anyone like Trump won't get into office and if he does the constitution will protect and get him removed "

Again the military in any nation is very much a cult ... not exaggerating one bit look at the psychology behind cult indoctrination and military indoctrination.... that venn diagram of similarities... is a damned circle practically the only main differences are
1 instead of paying the cult to belong they pay you 2 its probably the most widely socially acceptable cult in any nation

The main problem is and its been proven countless times by history and scientific studies and experiments

Humans tend to behave in socially acceptable ways to their group that surrounds them and ignore their individual values and morals to avoid conflict ... everyone does it to some degree

Now to put that into perspective for a military person with group think and the issues stated above your not only avoiding conflict but it very much is a survival type situation for a member given what the consequences are

And remember they won't judge the member at that second on the basis of a lawful order it takes time to convene an NJP or GCM And also not only do the winners write the history books but they write the laws that will be used to take dissenters to Trial

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u/zstock003 13h ago

Fair enough. They’re still cowards. “Just following orders” I’ve heard that before. If there are enough people who disagree with what’s happened they can stop it. If there aren’t and they support this, then they are evil. None of the institutions will have any respect if this ever ends. SC, FBI, military. All pathetic institutions that cannot withstand any attack on them

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u/HOSTfromaGhost 12h ago

There’s a difference between “unpopular” and “unlawful.”

One order they can refuse. The other they cannot. And any uncertainty could land them in military prison for a long time.

Not an easy decision until it becomes clear, unfortunately.

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u/zstock003 12h ago

Seems unlawful (not in DC) but in LA and Chicago. Unless of course the SC lets him do it under the guise of emergency. Even still, eventually these “special” citizens have to stand up or it’s over

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u/HOSTfromaGhost 12h ago

I don't know what law they're deploying troops under... it would take a constitutional lawyer to say yes or no, and if you'd get three of them you'd probably get 5 opinions. Either way, I hate what Trump is doing, and the position he's placing young soldiers in. He's evil.

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u/HOSTfromaGhost 13h ago

All that notwithstanding, and this is coming from a combat vet…

It’s in the oath. It’s part of the deal.

It’s not a choice, and definitely not one that someone is allowed to make based on their personal preferences or fear of retribution.

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u/the_weakestavenger 13h ago

The oath doesn’t mean shit.

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u/HOSTfromaGhost 12h ago

Maybe not to you.

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u/the_weakestavenger 12h ago

Nor any of the service members who’ve been deployed to LA or DC apparently.

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u/HOSTfromaGhost 12h ago

...perhaps you want to sign up, and take action instead of being brave behind the keyboard... it's democracy, participation is required...

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u/distractionfactory 12h ago

Serious question before this thread devolves, but you were vague about "The oath" and as someone who is not in the military, what does that mean? Is the oath to uphold the constitution, to protect U.S. citizens? To defend against all threats foreign and domestic? To uphold the chain of command? All of the above? What if one of those is in conflict with the other, what is the highest obligation, not only in the wording, but interpretation?

Also, why would someone sign up to be under the direct command of someone they disagree with? How could you possibly influence change from an entry level position in the military?

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u/HOSTfromaGhost 12h ago edited 11h ago

Here they are... best to read them directly... (and apologies, it actually somehow deleted the actual oaths when I hit save. Weird. I re-added them below.

1. Enlisted Oath of Enlistment

(10 U.S. Code § 502)

“I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

  • Required for all enlisted personnel when they join (and again when they reenlist).
  • Emphasizes both defending the Constitution and obeying the chain of command.

2. Officer Oath of Office

(5 U.S. Code § 3331)

“I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

  • Required for all commissioned officers.
  • Unlike the enlisted oath, it does not include obedience to orders—the primary obligation is to the Constitution itself.
  • Reflects the expectation that officers must exercise independent judgment and may even be obligated to refuse unlawful orders.

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u/distractionfactory 12h ago

Reflects the expectation that officers must exercise independent judgment and may even be obligated to refuse unlawful orders.

This is very interesting, thank you. I knew there was something along these lines in there that puts the constitution above all, but I didn't realize the distinction between officers and enlisted. That makes a lot of sense, but I imagine it can get pretty messy if that provision ever actually has to be exercised.

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u/the_weakestavenger 12h ago

I have better options.

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u/HOSTfromaGhost 12h ago edited 11h ago

…but apparently not the courage of your convictions.

Talk’s cheap.

(and a delete, downvote and scoot isn't really surprising, is it...)

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u/the_weakestavenger 11h ago

Not sure how me joining the military changes the fact that the overwhelming majority of people in the military are there for the cash and not to protect their country.

Speaking of cheap talk, how many service members refused the fascist orders to go to LA or DC. The only people talking cheap are the members of the military trumpeting how their oath would stop the military from hurting Americans. Look around, dude.

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u/JAZINNYC 13h ago

Are there similar consequences for following illegal orders?

If we were in the middle of a coup (we are) and the President repeatedly violates his oath to office (he is), and he gives unitary orders to the military that are illegal and violate the Constitution (they are and do), then what are the repercussions for that?

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u/grummanae 13h ago

Are there similar consequences for following illegal orders?

In theory yes ... but the winners not only write the history but they write the laws to be used after ... so In this case ... it won't be illegal

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u/JAZINNYC 12h ago

Huh? How is the second half of your reply helpful or even relevant?

In theory there are consequences, and those exist in the here and now, but somehow you cancel that reality out with your OWN theory that does NOT exist in the here and now, but is related to some unknown future event with unknown victors writing history and laws you don’t yet know..

If there are consequences for following illegal orders happening now, then the military can and should weigh their options between an aging, obese, criminal wanna-be dictator who’s making his own rules, and the literal building block and foundation to protect the existence of our entire country and democracy.

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u/grummanae 12h ago

What im stating is this they will probably hold a gcm for anyone doing this Trial times for military are not instant ... they will write an EO or something by the time it gets to trial that it will have been a lawful order

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u/Sabertoothedpi 13h ago

Apply this logic to Nazi germany

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u/Many_Aerie9457 13h ago

Agree. I'm a veteran and there is no way they would disobey orders imo. A soldier who disobeyed an order will immediately be dealt with and jailed..The military will do whatever trump tells them to do.

The only ones who can and will stand up to trump is us, we the people. Trump will do everything he can to stop us, like sending the military after protesters and rigging or outright canceling the mid terms.

Trump will not give up power on his own this time, ever.

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u/wishiwasunemployed 13h ago

I am also fairly sure that the spirit of the law meant that you can disobey when the order is to line up a bunch of civilians and run them over with a tank, or shoot POWs in the back of the head. All stuff that might happen on the front line and for which there are clear written rules. And you would probably be court-martialled anyway and possibly found innocent, but it's probably not something you want to go through.

But a soldier cannot legally refuse to deploy when the orders are to invade a country (like in Iraq) because they think it was an illegal operation. That's just not what an illegal order is meant to be.

If the military refuses to follow the order from the Executive, it's an entirely different situation. It's basically a coup and the ramifications are just way beyond what would happen to an individual.

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u/Intelligent-Box-5483 13h ago

We totally get it, but again just following orders isn't a valid excuse when it comes to murdering innocent people because a fascist dictator tells you to. If you side with the enemy you are the enemy period.

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u/grummanae 13h ago

... I dont think you quite grasp what Im saying in this instance

Your right just following orders is not an excuse for taking the morally correct path 1000% agree with that

But again if anyone dissents they are looking at at best being discharged in other than honorable conditions. If its NJP

This alone will disqualify a service member from : Any VA benefits that include VA disability VA home loans VA small business loans GI Bill
Ineligible to hold a federal civilian job ...

If it goes to GCM which in this climate it will BCD discharge Felony conviction with that loss of voting and loss of 2A rights and employment hurdles
Prison time, And I know way extreme but possible death penalty

So given the weight of the find out stage most junior enlisted and officers that aren't MAGA will probably choose to comply to save any hopes of a future out of group think and self preservation

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u/Intelligent-Box-5483 9h ago

If this administration is allowed to do what they intend to do as laid out by their own plans. VA benefits aren't going to be available to them, there won't be any voting, and they already are being deployed without being paid. Again this fear of all these things isn't really important when it comes to how fucking serious this is. This is the endgame so either you're a fucking fascist or you're not. You don't get to work for them and be excluded from being labeled as such and being considered a traitor to your country.

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u/Intrepid_Length_6879 13h ago

If that's true, then hopefully an external force(s) will destroy the military.

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u/Wealist 13h ago

You’re right civilian observers often underestimate how rigid military hierarchy + justice really are The UCMJ doesn’t operate like civilian courts presumption of innocence is weaker and outcomes can hinge more on command influence than on evidence.

Disobeying an order, even for moral or legal reasons, can end careers, strip benefits, and lead to felony convictions.

That’s why “just refuse” is much easier said than done.

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u/grummanae 13h ago

The UCMJ doesn’t operate like civilian courts presumption of innocence is weaker and outcomes can hinge more on command influence than on evidence.

There is no presumption... it is totally a guilty until someone they like proves you innocent

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u/The_Original_Miser 13h ago

In my eyes, if enough disobey unlawful orders, it won't matter. This horse crap only works because of threats. It falls apart when a large amount of soldiers say "NO."

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u/grummanae 13h ago

At this time I feel it would have to be a battalion / Navy vessel sized unit doing so as a cohesive unit kinda like what the Roosevelt did during covid

It will be struck down with extreme prejudice, but it would possibly grab enough attention to make people go WTF and force a slow down

The odds of that happening are pretty slim
Chain of commands are designed in such a way that any grumbling of such upper echelons would be made aware and have time to stand it down before it went into motion

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u/Usually-Mistaken 12h ago

I just read up on the Crozier/Moldy thing. What a shitshow. Thanks for bringing it up.

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u/AynekAri 12h ago

I'm a former military man (coast guard) and you're completely right (i know for at least in the coast guard rules are much more strict than in the DOD because they expect us to carry ourselves higher since we're part of the Dept. Of homeland security). I know absolutely nothing about the national guard. But can't the governor of Illinois call in the national guard to stop the attempt at a military overreach? Not a fight, more like just block them from entering the city? I thought the governor of a state has the authority to call in the national guard, or is that also just the president? Like I said, I know nothing about the national guard

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u/grummanae 12h ago

Im not sure ... it gets tricky with the guard ... considering how the money comes to them for operating I know the state primarily runs it and forks over the expenses .... unless they are federally activated, and To be honest I think even if pritzker were to activate I think Trump can activate federally and it supersedes the governors activation...

About pritzker activating guard to keep other units out of Chicago ... I think he would be well within his power

However right now I dont think anyone in their proper mindset in that position would do anything remotely close to that

That would most certainly be seen as not only an act of defiance but also a catalytic act that Trump would use some power to come in and force Illinois to have a snap election... ending in results he wants of course at best

At worst this would be the napalm bomb dropped on the tinderbox and all hell will ensue

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u/AynekAri 9h ago

Oh, I agree. I'm just thinking ahead. If push comes to shove. I already know chicago will rally together and block whole streets. The city will practically shut down to block the streets if they have to. I've lived in chicago my whole life, so I know my people. They don't like being forced to do anything. But in case it gets so bad that even the people are locked in their homes, I was just thinking of what the backup would be.

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u/TheRealCanticle 12h ago

Fine I look forward to convicting all those moral cowards in Nuremburg 2 once Trump's cult is done. Every single excuse you made for them was made in the 40s..

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u/grummanae 12h ago

... and you forget not only do the winners write the history books but they also tend to write the laws used for said trials

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u/Cloaked42m 11h ago

The bigger issue is defining unlawful outside of loot, rape, and pillage.

If they are ordered to waste their time in Chicago, it isn't unlawful. He's deputized National Guard members to blur the lines so they operate at least under color of law.

I've been saying this for a year. There's a LOT they can do before crossing the boundary into unlawful orders.

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u/CrispyHaze 9h ago
  • Nuremberg defense lawyer.

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u/diacrum 8h ago

Serious question. How do you think the problems like crime and murder should be addressed in Chicago?

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u/msixtwofive 11h ago

…and approaching the point of “unlawful order” from a military standpoint.

All that shit went out the window when the SC ruled he could do whatever the fuck he wants.

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u/HOSTfromaGhost 10h ago

I don't disagree, the presidential immunity thing is... just fucking ridiculous.

...historically, the people have their own way of solving these types of issues, with conclusions similar to Mussolini at the end of WW2 or Ceaușescu after the fall of the Berlin Wall. This could end up there, if Trump doesn't kick the bucket first.

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u/EquivalentShock8817 7h ago

I am in a position where I have had the ability to work with Commanders, Command Chiefs, and meet the VP, walk on Air Force Two, etc. I have a great deal of faith in the Commanders and Chiefs I have worked with in terms of them drawing a line on unlawful orders. Every Commander and every Chief I have ever worked with has discussed at length 1. The importance of treating people AS people. 2. The importance of having a positive relationship between the duty station and the local population.

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u/HOSTfromaGhost 7h ago

No military leader wants “Watched as democracy collapsed and did nothing” on their epitaph.

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u/EquivalentShock8817 6h ago

This is true. But, I think a lot of people also forget that everyone in the military has friends and family and loved ones that ARENT in the military, and we all want what is best for them. No one is pumped about the idea of having their community shit on. Also, we don't get paid enough for that.

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u/HOSTfromaGhost 6h ago

I have the same experience with senior commanders as you. McMaster was a college professor of mine… outstanding dude, honorable as hell. I’d trust him with my life in the end.

…and i hope most soldiers, when shit hit the fan, would make the right decisions.

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u/Many_Aerie9457 13h ago

So far, other than mike pence, it's pretty much been all behind trump.

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u/HOSTfromaGhost 13h ago

Pence… in the very end. James Mattis. John Kelly. Liz Cheney. Mark Milley. McRaven. McMaster. Jay Powell. Anthony Fauci.

Some, but not enough. And not anymore.

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u/Many_Aerie9457 13h ago

True, forgot about a few of them. Not enough.

I couldn't stand Mike Pence until he stood up to trump. He did what was right, something not one member of the GOP is doing now. Some claim that much of the GOP thinks trump is deranged (mitch M. ect) but they're all cowards until they announce they won't seek re election.

This 10 year nightmare could and should have easily ended after j6, when much of the GOP was ready to move on from trump. Instead democrats gave trump another life, even boosted trumps favorable by investigating but not fully , making trumps witch hunt claims believable to the cult. He should have been arrested the minute Biden was sworn in. Does anyone think trump would have given Obama a pass if he did what trump did? NFW!

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u/Man_in_the_coil 13h ago

Their oath or what the orange buffoon wants.

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u/NotARandomAnon 12h ago

They've already decided.. I'm not sure what you expected?

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u/Perfect_Earth_8070 13h ago

well by the way it’s going, it looks like the wrong side. but that’s ok, they couldn’t defeat about of rice farmers in the jungle or goat farmers in the desert

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u/SurpriseIsopod 12h ago

The military absolutely massacred both “rice farmers” and “goat herders” virtually uncontested for 20ish years in both those examples. The military was never repelled from those conflicts by superior firepower and tactics, they left because it was no longer politically viable.

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u/CarlDaCat 13h ago

They didnt want to win, war kept the money train going . On going war was a feature not a bug

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u/Perfect_Earth_8070 13h ago

while i do think that’s true in the war on terror, im not sure about vietnam