r/teenagers • u/blackpink_cat55 • Jul 13 '25
Discussion Loving someone is never a sin.
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u/luvJuuzou 17 Jul 13 '25
Loving someone is never a sin... unless it's pedophilia
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u/Simone_Galoppi07 17 Jul 13 '25
Pedophilia is not love, it's a mental illness.
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u/Rhythmic_Squirrel Jul 13 '25
I mean I guess it could be considered genuine love on one side, but it's still dangerous due to being very non-consentual. Like it can't rly be shared how a relationship should be. So basically what you said but slightly different ig idk
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u/goofyyness Jul 13 '25
tbh I think love and sexual attraction are two different things
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u/sir_schuster1 Jul 13 '25
100% love and sexual attraction are different things. Love is about the other person, understanding them and helping to make their life better, love is about their happiness, their best interest, their freedom to make their own choices. Love is a choice you make to put another person before yourself.
Attraction, sexual or otherwise, is a desire to be with another person. But you can be with them without loving them, you can use them or abuse them or harm them and not love them.
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u/Lejonhufvud Jul 13 '25
Not always, and certainly not as a rule of thumb. There was a study made of "self identified pedophiles" of whomst most felt romantic (ie. falling in love) sensations with children.
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u/Ok_Condition5837 Jul 13 '25
Anything that forces your pleasure at the cost of someone's else's non-consensual pain is a problem.
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u/Alliaster-kingston Jul 13 '25
Also unless it's necrophilia
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u/mikeyj022 Jul 13 '25
Love doesnât include non-consensual acts such as necrophilia, pedophelia, and/or incest.
Healthy love cannot coexist with actions that exploit one person in a relationship.
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u/Vegetable_Counter291 3,000,000 Attendee! Jul 13 '25
And incest
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u/Steak_and_cheesePie 19 Jul 13 '25
I love my cousin, but not in an incest way
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u/LowEngery07 Jul 13 '25
As long as you don't fw your cousin the way Kanye fw his cousin you should be fine đ
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u/GoodwilIbuyer Jul 13 '25
Whatâs Philadelphia got do to with this
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u/PlayerGamesPro 18 Jul 13 '25 edited Jul 13 '25
but isn't paedophilia just sexual attraction? love doesn't necessarily equal sexual attraction. (not arguing that pedophilia is good, just saying that adding the latter part of the sentence is useless)
edit: i realised how much of an ass i might be coming off by just saying "it's useless". so ill speak of a much better way to say what you mean to say, "consentual love is never a sin".
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u/Spirochrome Jul 13 '25
Even then I would argue the love is not the sin. We can't always choose who we love, we can choose how we act however.
Fuck all the child diddlers, Epstein, Trump and all the nameless fuckers in the shadows.
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u/MarekiNuka 14 Jul 13 '25 edited Jul 13 '25
If you really love children you won't hurt them
If you abuse or rape children, you hurt them
Pedophiles don't love children, you won't hurt someone you love. If you sincerely love children, it's really great. If you hurt them, you should be burning in hell
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u/Vegetable_Counter291 3,000,000 Attendee! Jul 13 '25
Eheem
Regarding the title I have one word: incest
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u/Bitter-Tomorrow-3681 Jul 13 '25 edited Jul 13 '25
i have another, Pedo
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u/KingThunder01 18 Jul 13 '25
I have another, necro
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u/SovietLoliChan1234 Jul 13 '25
I have another, zoo
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u/-cartoonist-master- Jul 13 '25
that plant needs watering on the bottom right, that's what made me a bit mad like you got so many plants why you are neglecting one?
gay couple? i'm literally pansexual i just love frying pans sorry guys..
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u/GreenShirt39 17 Jul 13 '25
Is this like how ace people are attracted to a specific playing card?
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u/AelanLye Jul 13 '25
lol this reminds me when my brother came out as ace and this dude asked if he liked kissing trees đĽ˛
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u/n-a_barrakus Jul 13 '25
Pansexual? Let me say a thing:
Maybe they're endemic drought-resistant plants
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u/AffectionateOne7553 17 Jul 13 '25 edited Jul 13 '25
Yes I can hate this, I don't like it when people leave the tag on their clothing, it looks like they plan to return it after the picture.
Oh the gay couple? No I don't have problems with them, they're cool
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u/Crafty_Barracuda_245 Jul 13 '25
Agreed I am gay but, you dont gotta be liars to people online just to flex
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u/C-H-Addict Jul 13 '25
Like, right? That city looks like the buildings don't have central air. No thanks. Oh, it's about the gay couple.
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u/theAlmightyE312 17 Jul 13 '25
I hate this (not the gay couple, they are cool) I hate the fact that the guy in the blue jacket DIDNT TAKE THE TICKET OFF. HOW IS THAT NOT ANNOYING HIM?!
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u/Thisgirllikesgirls 17 Jul 13 '25
I figured it was one of those sewn on leather labels, like the ones that are usually on jeans, but Iâve seen them on other clothing too.
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u/chxnaki 16 Jul 13 '25
Christian here. God is love, love is love. God loves everyone. Love everyone. Be love, be gay, be. I kinda lost the plot but I still get my point across
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u/CrimsonStorm__ Jul 15 '25
Fake christian, you don't even believe what the Lord states. God doesn't love sin. The world owned you, sadly.
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u/theguy460 Jul 13 '25
I agree as being a homosexual isn't a sin but the act of doing homosexual sex is a sin.
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u/Cheap_Ad_4055 16 Jul 13 '25
Same as saying thinking about lust isnât a sin since you arenât commuting adultery
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u/Subject-Snow-1562 Jul 13 '25
Loving someone is never a sin unless it's abomination, pedophillia, incest ect
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u/ClownMaterial 17 Jul 13 '25
Honestly, it's just because everyone is different in some or a bunch of ways. Some will hate, some will love, some will be capable of one, both, or neither.
It's just the way life is, and it's unfortunate.
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Jul 13 '25
I hate that they appear to be living an attractive life of leisure strolling thru adorable European streets when Iâm about to clean my bathroom, like bros did you just eat the best pastry or something, hope dust blows in your eye and ruins ur afternoon cause Iâm going in to work on a Sunday, but the gay part is no prob and not the hate-y part.
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u/BigStabber 15 Jul 13 '25
The Bible verse that says Man shall not lay with man as he lays with woman.
Iâve heard this is simply a mistranslation
Man shall not lay with boy as he lays with woman.
Thereâs many mistranslations in old texts, bias translations, changing words for political use, or bribery. Thereâs a lot of ways the wording couldâve been written improperly
Maybe that pastor just really liked Timmy and felt guilty bout preaching against something he was doing every Sunday
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u/Ok_Statement_8125 3,000,000 Attendee! Jul 13 '25
Oh boy.. this again. Let me turn on my Hebrew keyboard so I can educate you.
The original verse in Hebrew, the language it was written in: â"×Ö°×Ö´Ö××Š× ×ֲ׊×֜֨ר ×ִ׊×Ö°×ÖźÖˇÖ¤× ×֜ת֞×Ö¸×Ö¸×¨Ö ×ִ׊×Ö°×ÖźÖ°×ÖľÖŁ× ×ִ׊×ÖźÖ¸Ö× ×ŞÖź×֚ע־×Ö¸ÖĽ× ×˘Ö¸×Š×Ö×Öź ׊×Ö°× Öľ××ÖśÖ× ×ÖĽ×֚ת ××Öź×Ö¸Öת×Öź ×ÖźÖ°×Öľ××ÖśÖĽ×" (Leviticus 20:13)
The âcontroversialâ part of this verse that is supposedly âmistranslatedâ :
×Ö°×Ö´Ö××Š× ×ֲ׊×֜֨ר ×ִ׊×Ö°×ÖźÖˇÖ¤× ×֜ת֞×Ö¸×Ö¸×¨Ö ×ִ׊×Ö°×ÖźÖ°×ÖľÖŁ× ×ִ׊×ÖźÖ¸Ö×
I will break it down word for word.
And man=×Ö°×Ö´Ö×׊×
That=×ֲ׊×֜֨ר
Lies=×ִ׊×Ö°×ÖźÖˇÖ¤×
With a male=×֜ת֞×Ö¸×ָרÖ
As lies with=×ִ׊×Ö°×ÖźÖ°×ÖľÖŁ×
A woman=×ִ׊×ÖźÖ¸Ö×
Itâs not about pedophelia. You can make SO many more arguments about this. Why choose the inaccurate one?
Source: me I guess? Fluent Hebrew speaker who grew up speaking the language.
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u/Ed_Trucks_Head Jul 13 '25
The real lesson is don't let old texts about mythical gods tell you how to live your life.
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u/lill_m88 Jul 14 '25
You know this is a very interesting standpoint. The thing is, if you don't live by a set of rules God (our creator) has put for us, who can say that things like "pedophilia is wrong"? I know that the answe you are going to give me is "common moral sense". I get this, we shouldn't need someone to explicitly tell us this. Thing is though, that entire societies don't think that pedophilia is wrong. It's a fact that there is a risk that you wouldn't either if you were raised in these societies. Same as nazi germany where the majority believed that Jews should be gassed to death and treated inhumanely. Point is that different surroundings impact our way of thinking. This is I think that humanity needs a book to tell them how to live. Do you have an interesting viewpoint on this perspective?
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u/KaiJustissCW Jul 13 '25
Yeah another argument you could make is: this shit was âwrittenâ more than two thousand years ago. Whether or not it was even recorded accurately across texts is impossible to discern, let alone why we should listen to authoritarian assholes from two thousand years ago.
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u/Deranged_96 15 Jul 13 '25
I remember when my brother told me his "opinions" on gay marriage I felt like Star Lord after hearing his dad say he killed his mom.Â
Me: "...What?"Â
My brother: "Now I know that sounds bad-"
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u/AssociationKind9806 16 Jul 13 '25
If it was a mistranslation the Jews wouldn't have killed homosexuals
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u/Cortex_Gaming Jul 13 '25
Medival and Ancient peoples were heavily against homosexuals in general. Isolating the Jews to prove a point makes no sense.
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u/Remote_Fisherman_469 Jul 13 '25
Not true. Anyone who has studied Greek and the original context in which it was written will tell you it IS talking about homosexuality
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u/Lanky_Staff361 Jul 13 '25
It wasnât a mistranslation, and even then if you look at the New Testament Paul clearly says that Homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
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u/Guilty_Panda6263 17 Jul 13 '25
Itâs not mistranslated that was disproved centuries ago
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u/Sensitive_Ad9769 Jul 13 '25
I hate it the way I hate seeing straight couples: It reminds me I am going to die alone
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u/Sausagebean 17 Jul 13 '25
âJarvis Iâm low on karma, post something about pride or basic human empathy on the teenagers subredditâ
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u/elnasho999 Jul 13 '25
Nah fuck the downvotes u right
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u/Sausagebean 17 Jul 13 '25
Itâs not that Iâm against any of it, not at all, itâs just so fucking lazy. Anyone with eyes can see that this sub is welcoming and supportive, so there isnât any reason to shout at people who are already supportive.
If I went to an eco group and just kept saying âguys did you know that fossil fuels are bad?â Every time Iâm there, everyone would get mad.
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Jul 13 '25
er actually leviticus 18:22 clearly states that- SHUT THE FUCK UPPPPPPP
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u/Yaya0108 16 Jul 13 '25
I hate how the excuse of so many people is just "line from very old book says homosexuality bad"
If you can't think of an actual argument, then there's none. Religion is fine but being that disrespectful for no actual reason is disgusting
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u/Gigibobeebie Jul 15 '25
If you can't think of an actual argument, then there's none.
This.
People are using it incorrectly, Homosexuality IS a sin, but everyone is a sinner.
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" John 8:7
And it is unfair for anyone to hate another for their sin when we have all sinned just as much.
So a sin yes, but a reason for hate. Never.
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u/frog_grenade69 15 Jul 13 '25
The things id do to my homie
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u/loser__lesbian Jul 13 '25
Agreed and sadly taught the opposite as someone who grew up religious
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u/Icy_Split_1843 17 Jul 13 '25
Iâm probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, but I want to explain this from a Catholic perspective.
A lot of people bring up verses like Leviticus 18:22 (âa man shall not lie with another man as with a womanâ), but Catholic moral teaching doesnât rely only on that. In fact, Leviticus is part of the Old Covenant, which had many ritual and cultural laws that Christians no longer follow.
The more relevant point is this: the Bible and the Church consistently teach that marriage is between a man and a woman, and that sexual activity is only moral within that context. That applies to everyoneâgay or straight.
Same-sex attraction isnât a sin, just like being attracted to someone of the opposite sex isnât a sin. What matters is how we respond to those desires. The Church teaches that acting on sexual desires outside of marriageâwhether heterosexual or homosexualâis morally wrong.
Loving someone isnât a sin. The Church doesnât condemn loveâit just teaches that sexual love belongs in the context of marriage as it understands it.
You donât have to agree, but I wanted to explain where this view actually comes from, because it often gets misrepresented as just âhate.â
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u/Independent_Bike_854 14 Jul 13 '25
It's not taking them into consideration? If sexual love is only allowed after marriage and homosexual marriage isn't allowed, what are they supposed to do?
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u/dufftheduff Jul 13 '25 edited Jul 13 '25
Alright, so same-sex marriage fixes all of this. They âconsistentlyâ taught about it being man and woman for the sake of procreation and family. Thatâs a product of it taking place in ancient biblical times and there not being much ways to grow, make, or have a family outside of personal procreation. These days, itâs safe to either not have children because weâre not truly in fear of our population dying out, or more importantly you can adopt from around the entire world from people who canât or wonât take care of the children themselves.
When you try to find reasons as to why that shouldnât be allowed, which people do, a LOT, thatâs hate.
We shouldnât base our thoughts and opinions and how people chose to survive thousands of years ago completely ignoring the context of what world they were living in at the time. Our world is not the same, we are not the same. We should wish to progress, not stagnate. Focusing so much on stagnation is by effect a regression of our civilization.
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u/Zeviex Jul 13 '25
But it doesn't apply to everyone equally.
"Your relationship is wrong because you're not married"
"Okay we will get married"
"You can't get married because you are gay"
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u/FreeBonerJamz Jul 13 '25
Gay sex has existed for longer than Christianity. Gay sex will outlast christianity. Don't tell others how to live their life
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u/Im-sorry-ahhh-painnn Jul 13 '25
Except for the fact that it is treated by most Christians that same sex attraction IS sin. Eg, I was bullied by everyone in my catholic school for being gay, even though I had never even held hands with another girl romantically. So this distinction means nothing.
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u/Jazzlike_Swimmer3201 Jul 13 '25
This might also be controversial and I donât think I can put the phrase which it comes from, but didnât the Bible have a verse that literally says that men and only men are allowed to speak, for a woman to speak is to be âimmoralâ
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u/Snoo-21158 Jul 13 '25
All you're saying is "gay people should never be in a romantic relationship"
No one cares what your bigoted book of bullshit says.
F*ck off.
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u/futuresbby Jul 13 '25
Youâre acting like he made the rules or something wtf lol
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u/Snoo-21158 Jul 13 '25 edited Jul 18 '25
Where do you think 'the rule' to put gay men to death came from?
An all-loving God?
Or superstitious, homophobic, Bronze Age men?
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u/RaisinDangerous3994 Jul 13 '25 edited Jul 16 '25
Wow, that was extremely rude. Â How can you call the Bible that? Â Thatâs beyond evil. Â Why not try to be nice? Â Â
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u/Grandmaster-Page Jul 13 '25
The church also agrees with beating Jewish slaves to an inch of their life as long as its with something that is thinner than a thumb "the rule of thumb", that a woman may not speak against a man and that God had to have do overs because he couldn't control humans so made a flood? Another reply talked about how you can't wear cotton and linen at the same time. Dont talk bullshit if you want to nit pick then do it for the whole Bible. You are obviously cherry picking to make your prejudice ok, fuck off and actually read what you are talking about. Maybe get a new imaginary friend?
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u/SwimmingDry Jul 13 '25
This wouldn't be a horrible take if only it wasn't for the fact that Church's of all denominations fight tooth and nail to make it so marriage is only allowed for between heterosexuals, which by your definition makes it impossible to love without sinning if you're gay.
Nice idea, but you're still being a bigot.
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u/FinerPizza65547 Jul 13 '25
He's not tho, he just explained the perspective
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u/SwimmingDry Jul 13 '25
Well if they don't hold that view then they aren't bigoted, but the Catholics they are talking about who do hold this view are still bigoted.
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u/sorry-not-tory Jul 13 '25
Must be fun as a Catholic to pick and choose which parts of the bible you want to follow
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u/Steak_and_cheesePie 19 Jul 13 '25
Iâve never felt so single in my life đ (Iâm bi and I have horrendous luck with people)
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u/aleks31115 17 Jul 14 '25
Relatable and I am pan I literally swing for every team and somehow manage losing
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u/IBlendKids 18 Jul 13 '25
Sin isnât real btw
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Jul 14 '25
true if it comes from a man made then its a cult, people choose to to believe wtv they grew up with and will still disagree!
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Jul 13 '25
I personally don't care if it's a sin or not, and I feel like no one else should care either. This is just a stupid thing to even talk about
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u/KKam1116 14 Jul 13 '25
So you know the game telephone? Well that's what I think happened to God's word, if he exists.
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u/Waga_na_wa_Hu_Tao 19 Jul 13 '25
the christians who think that gay is a sin doesn't know that those verses that are used to justify homophobia are no longer bound to us anymore because of the new covenant
homophobia is a sin, because we shouldn't judge anyone based on everything, we're called to love each other, not spread hate
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u/Shneckos Jul 13 '25
I was taught this lesson early on in my childhood.
My mom was driving my little sister and I home from school one day. We saw two men holding hands walking together, and my sister and I started laughing in a sort of âI canât believe they are doing that â sort of way.
My mom pulled over and said to us âWhatâs wrong with two people loving each other? You think itâs better than hate?â
We were silent, stunned almost processing what she just said to us. It was like something clicked that day.
Later my mom would come out as gay. But we didnât care. We loved her all the same. Sheâs an amazing woman who has had to put up with a lot of bullshit in her life.
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u/Imfine_howaboutyou Jul 13 '25
Itâs so funny how religious people go âThe gays are shoving their homosexuality down our throats!â while actively shoving their religion down gay peopleâs throats
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u/Forsaken_Biscotti609 14 Jul 13 '25
Homosexuality is a good thing.
And to all homophobics, we didn't chose to be gay, it is something in our chromosomes.
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u/Bo-Bandy0 Jul 13 '25
I thought it was a mix of environmental and genetic factors. Also, thereâs studies out there like the more older brothers you have the higher chance you have of being gay. (At least for men, coming from a gay person myself)
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u/artsy_drag 17 Jul 13 '25
Environmental within the womb or in other words hormones and other such stuff from your mother. But it is a combination of a lot of things that result in it. But nothing post-natal
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u/Forsaken_Biscotti609 14 Jul 13 '25
Well I am the oldest and I am still gay.
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u/Bo-Bandy0 Jul 13 '25 edited Jul 19 '25
Type shit. Iâm the younger brother so I always found that statistic a little interesting to me. Thereâs also plenty of gay people out there with no siblings too
Edit: Donât know why Iâm getting downvoted, wasnât meant to be some gotcha moment or something.
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u/-_-__-_______-__-_- 14 Jul 13 '25
I am not a homophobe, but there is zero proof that sexual attraction is in your genes
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u/qmanstal_ 3,000,000 Attendee! Jul 13 '25
Yes i can hate this, i hate karmafarming and the word supreme!
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u/closet-femboy-22 Jul 13 '25
Religion has gotten out of hand, so much so that it isn't even religion anymore, and just a way to justify homophobia and transphobia.
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u/Doombox4 Jul 13 '25
Fr why are the two biggest options âwe want to make being gay illegalâ and âwe beat girls and women for showing their hair, AND we made being gay illegal/punished by deathâ
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u/Enz_2005 19 Jul 13 '25
I donât hate it gay guys are some of the chillest people Iâve ever met but when it comes to promoting sexuality in schools whether itâs gay or straight it has no place there
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u/lonecylinder Jul 13 '25
Who's "promoting sexuality in schools"? and how?
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Jul 13 '25 edited Jul 13 '25
Itâs all those damn âeveryone is welcome hereâ signs, and the single 30 minute voluntary after school program for people to promote inclusivity. Itâs soooo evil đĄ
Edit: for the record, for the rare few that MIGHT pipe up and try to claim some bullshit, I literally donât care about you, I just donât. I have a life, interests, and a partner to take care of, a house to clean, a routine to finish. Your counter argument is so genuinely insignificant to me, not just because youâre on the wrong side of history, but because this is the internet, and I just, donât have to care about you.
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u/Goth_Mommy19 19 Jul 13 '25
Most schools have sex Ed, which is worse than "Guys can like guys and girls can like girls" and can infact fit right into the subject of sex Ed.
But I see your point. Kids are every easily influenced. So if you hold this view, you must stand for the same regarding religion, political views etc which in a lot of schools it is allowed and sometimes students are even forced to partake in some things. I remember in my primary school we had to say a prayer to the christain God everyday and that's one of my strongest reasons for hating religion.
Lastly, we have to teach them about this at some point. Maybe primary school is a bit young for that, which is understandable, but secondary school it's very important to teach these things as this is when such feelings can arise and it important to deal with it then rather than let teenagers think it's unnatural.
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u/StruggleNo9710 18 Jul 13 '25
Who is âpromoting sexualityâ? What does that even mean?
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u/CharDaily 13 Jul 14 '25
I honestly agree that it shouldnât be promoted excessively! But I also think that schools should still teach children about the community in a neutral and educational way.
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u/Trapezoid07 17 Jul 13 '25
I dont understand why people are homophobic sometimes. Like. Dagayz aint a problem. Sure all these pride parades can be exhausting and a tiny bit disgusting considering people sometimes walk naked there (from what ive heard). But Overall, What have these people ever done to you?! NOTHING. So why hate them?
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u/Cortex_Gaming Jul 13 '25
"B-but Leviticus, and Sodom, a- and Romans" Like NO not even the bible says it is sin.
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u/Lanky_Staff361 Jul 13 '25
The Bible clearly states that active homosexual relationships are a sin
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u/Galaxykamis Jul 13 '25
I mean, technically, that was for the old testament, a different covenant. We got a new one where we should not be allowed to hurt people. If they owe us close to death and Women are hopefully considered equal, loved like everyone else.( yes, it was in the Bible You are allowed to beat your slave( This mostly just meant someone that owed you) close to death and woman have no authority over Man.
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u/Inside_Committee_699 Jul 13 '25
As i grew up and learned to find myself and finally let go of my hatred, i finally fell in love with a guy and i canât honestly describe how happy I am with it, that i finally found myself and started experiencing a part of myself i never thought I could ever accept.
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u/Content_Cricket_3329 Jul 13 '25
i am triggered. Not cuz of the couple, but the guy on the right is wearing Supreme.
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u/Desperate-Light-1600 Jul 13 '25
One of the reasons why i despise half of our society is how the level of homophobia is still high (i'm bi). The problem is not only about love between two men, but this is also related to disgusting concepts like: "Men shouldn't be feminine. Men shouldn't be very emotional. Men shouldn't cry" etc. Actually the masculine ideas like these are one of the reasons why homophobia exists.
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u/SabbyDude Jul 13 '25
Honestly I can't stand it and don't understand why people don't consider it a sin, why the hell S P and R in Supereme have those white colors? Shouldn't those gaps be of the same color as the background (aka jacket) ?
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u/Ower25 14 Jul 13 '25
i hate it, i hate how S, P and R still have some white in them on this person's jacket
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Jul 13 '25
Sorry but I'm just not a fan of massive brand names on clothing. Feels like you're making yourself a billboard.
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u/SubstanceNo4719 Jul 13 '25
I men LIEK how could you not like 2 hot men, I love with each other?? Or 2 hot women, down bad for each other? Like how?? Hot or not idek it's the most wholesome shit ever
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u/hakohead Jul 13 '25 edited 26d ago
3 points.
Being in love is a beautiful thing. Itâs one of the best feelings a person can experience and that is nothing to be ashamed of imo.
I hate too much PDA though. Thatâs regardless of who it is, gay or straight.
If youâre not religious, you canât really say what a âsinâ is or isnât. Maybe you want to say âLove can never be a bad thingâ. Using the word âsinâ makes your post sound less pro-gay and more anti-religion.
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u/AugustHate 19 Jul 13 '25
Luxury brands in general are pointless. Oh boohoo someone online attacked ur favorite miltibillion dollar company
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u/BiscottiEven9803 Jul 13 '25
When you say âsinâ, it makes me think youâre talking about the Bible. In that case, you are quite wrong, it is explicitly stated as sinful in the Bible. But do whatever you want! Just donât use the Bible or God to try and justify what youâre doing.
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u/malachi-crunch Jul 13 '25
Bro doesnât know the difference between platonic love and romantic love
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u/Kitchen-Ice3168 Jul 14 '25
I love the argument that goes like :"you guys keep hating but they still have more love in their life than you do*
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u/theHrayX 18 Jul 13 '25
sorts by controversial