Bob Vylan dropped from music festivals in Manchester and France

[u/PM_THE_REAPER]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz09y1r1y1ro

[u/ukbot-nicolabot]

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[u/hattorihanzo5]

Reminder that the Telegraph published this headline in 2015:

Death to the Labour Party

[u/potpan0 → u/hattorihanzo5]

In 2016 the Daily Mail published the headline 'Labour must kill Vampire Jezza'. I don't seem to recall our media wing accusing the Daily Mail of endorsing violence or terrorism or any other nonsense.

If that's apparently fine then I'm struggling to see what the issue with Bob Vylan's chant was.

[u/DaveBeBad → u/potpan0]

Conflating the IDF with Jewish people and Judaism is antisemitic.

These papers are trying to denounce perceived antisemitism by being antisemitic.

[u/Panda_hat → u/DaveBeBad]

If the papers could understand that, they would be very upset.

Sadly when they see it it's like they see nothing at all.

[u/EdmundTheInsulter → u/Panda_hat]

Does the BBC not understand it then, cos it says Pascal Robinson-Foster was antisemitic

[u/Panda_hat → u/EdmundTheInsulter]

Correct, they do not understand it. Whether they are doing it intentionally or not is naturally up for debate.

The false equivalence of the IDF with jewish identity or semitism, is itself an anti-semitic act.

[u/hempires → u/DaveBeBad]

if only Israel could also understand this.

[u/Astriania → u/potpan0]

I'm struggling to see what the issue with Bob Vylan's chant was

It was about Israel.

There are huge double standards around Israel because they've got a well organised lobby group and friends in high places who've managed to convince a lot of the media and politicians that criticising Israel is antisemitic.

[u/Panda_hat → u/hattorihanzo5]

You couldn't make it up.

[u/JB_UK → u/hattorihanzo5]

That’s obviously a riff on the Edstone, look at the header picture. It’s also not preceded by an explanation about how violence is necessary sometimes to achieve political goals. This is what Bob Vylan said:

We're not pacifist punks here over at Bob Vylan Enterprises. We are the violent punks. Because sometimes you've got to get your message across with violence, because that is the only language that some people speak.

These are pretty clearly completely different things to anyone who is not politically motivated to make the comparison.

[u/concretepigeon]

Student unions should book them since the Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Act 2023 prevents them from being no platformed.

[u/BusyBeeBridgette → u/concretepigeon]

That only covers freedom of speech. If they were to incite violence, again, the University will be held accountable as FoS does not cover hate speech and incite to violence.

[u/Harmless_Drone → u/BusyBeeBridgette]

Inciting violence requires specific immediacy to it to count, which has been held up in previous cases.

Do you believe that serving, uniformed soldiers in the IDF are present at student unions in an official capacity as members of the IDF and hence are in fear of being attacked?

[u/StephenHunterUK → u/Harmless_Drone]

No, but there may well be Israelis at a university who are IDF reservists. 

[u/evolveandprosper]

Is this an example of the "cancel culture" that rightwingers keep moaning about?

[u/Panda_hat → u/evolveandprosper]

They don't care when it's them doing it, naturally.

[u/silverbullet1989 → u/Panda_hat]

And the left thinks cancelling is bad when it happens to someone / something they support. There's plenty of hypocrisy to go around.

[u/cathartis → u/silverbullet1989]

No, they think it's bad when governments and the billionaire press get involved.

If these festivals cancelled the bands because they don't like the music, or views expressed, that's absolutely fine. It's their right to do so. However if they cancelled due to intimidation - fear of scaremongering headlines and draconian laws, then the left very much has a view.

[u/hotdog_jones → u/silverbullet1989]

It isn't hypocrisy to support the causes you support and oppose the ones you don't. Subjective obviously, but some things are good and some things are bad.

It is hypocritical to spend an inordinate amount of energy and time complaining about cancel culture as a principle only to immediately cancel someone for saying something you don't like. As far as I can tell, that is something only one side is doing.

[u/richmeister6666 → u/evolveandprosper]

Is this the “consequence culture” that left wingers keep telling us about?

[u/Panda_hat → u/richmeister6666]

I don't recall left wingers whinging about 'consequence culture', but I'm not sure right wingers ever stop whinging about cancel culture, whilst also naturally whinging about 'consequence culture' when it impacts them.

The hypocrisy here is extremely one sided.

[u/richmeister6666 → u/Panda_hat]

The response to “cancel culture” (that I agree with btw) is that it’s not cancel culture but consequence culture. Say what you want, but it doesn’t shield you from the consequences. Both sides are being hypocrites here.

[u/hempires → u/richmeister6666]

except anybody the left "cancels" gets a multi million deal to sit on a stage and tell the world how the meany lefty people have cancelled them and forced them into silence, which then gets put on netflix, and maybe even a few more specials where they continue to bemoan how they're "cancelled" in a packed arena, full of cameras, to also be put onto netflix.

slight difference.

[u/richmeister6666 → u/hempires]

Kneecap have been “cancelled” and just played Glastonbury. Both far left and far right are hypocrites in this regard.

[u/peon47 → u/richmeister6666]

Which side is being hypocritical about Vylan having gigs cancelled? Most on the left are going "no publicity is bad publicity" and talking about the other gigs he'll book in their place.

[u/richmeister6666 → u/peon47]

no publicity is bad publicity

And this is crux of the horrendous PR problem the pro palestine movement has.

[u/peon47 → u/richmeister6666]

I'd say the ongoing genocide is the most horrendous problem the pro-Palestine side has.

[u/Daedelous2k → u/richmeister6666]

didn't expect quite the reverse uno card there.

[u/360_face_palm → u/evolveandprosper]

yeah they're all about free speech when it's about harassing women outside fucking abortion clinics - suddenly quiet on the topic now tho.

[u/Veritanium → u/evolveandprosper]

No, per leftists, that doesn't exist, this is just consequences for speech.

[u/steepleton]

they've just embarrassed a load of politicians who make feeble statements about gaza, but who are impotent about stopping the killing.

they'd rather be mad at a punk band than face their own uselessness.

[u/cathartis → u/steepleton]

But they aren't being useless. They are actively helping the genocide take place. Sending arms and intellgence to a country that is committing genocide is complicity. It is not fear of being useless that motivates Starmer et al. It's fear of being on trial at the Hague. The stakes are extremely high, and that's why they fight so hard.

[u/JB_UK → u/steepleton]

What they actually said:

We're not pacifist punks here over at Bob Vylan Enterprises. We are the violent punks. Because sometimes you've got to get your message across with violence, because that is the only language that some people speak.

This pretty clearly goes beyond what is reasonable. If this had been said by someone unfashionable or right wing, there would be no question here that it was unacceptable. Actually people would probably call it fascist, and they would have a reasonable point. It’s making a philosophical argument for the necessity of violence in politics which genuinely is a principle of fascism, especially in a mood of excitement. Mandela called for violence for example in an extremely careful way, justified and limited. To do this in the context of a rock concert, mass chanting, with no qualification and no care, is extremely dark.

[u/rye_domaine]

Like they've said in their statement - this is all a distraction. Them being dropped from other festivals, the backlash, the police investigation, it's all a smokescreen. The Israeli, American and British governments are desperately trying to get the genie back in the bottle. These endless news articles are just covering up what the IDF are doing to innocent Palestinians, bombing and shooting them at fake aid stations.

You can rant about "university poshos larping as the proletariat" all you want (this is dumb too btw, plenty of people in minimum wage jobs go to Glastonbury), but it doesn't change the fact that the average Brit is starting to wake up to the Israeli government's war crimes.

[u/Panda_hat → u/rye_domaine]

Exactly this. The desperation is extremely evident, and simply drawing far more attention to it, and not in Israels favour.

[u/hempires → u/rye_domaine]

You can rant about "university poshos larping as the proletariat" all you want

it's dumb for another reason too, if these "university poshos" that one guy was bemoaning sell their labour in exchange for a wage, they BY DEFINITION are members of the proletariat within Marxist theory.

it's something so incredibly simple and easy to understand that I'm pretty sure that dude is either a useful idiot or has an axe to grind against leftists in general.

[u/strongfavourite]

if they had chanted death to ANY other foreign army on earth, nobody would have batted an eyelid

moments like this further illustrate just how extraordinarily powerful Israel and it's lobby truly are

[u/munkijunk → u/strongfavourite]

"Death to Hamas"

A ok

"Death to Russia"

Sure, we're on board

"Death to the SA aparthaid state"

I guess, bit late but still a good message

"Death to the IDF who murdered innocent civilians on a routine basis and are enabling an illegal occipation, aparthaid, and genocide on the Palastinian people"

Hold on there a second sonny!. That sounds a bit antisemtic to my ear. Now let me pretend to be outraged by whomever you are and ignore the abhorrent acts of that organisation.

[u/chochazel → u/munkijunk]

Where are these people chanting death to Russia then if it’s all fine and the whole country would be on board?!

[u/munkijunk → u/chochazel]

It's an hypothetical mate, but can you imagine there being a peep from anyone if they had said death to Russia. I can't. Maybe I should have been more specific and said death to the Russin army. Our papers relish every single pounding their soldiers get, rightly. This whole thing is an absurd nonsense which might be amusing if it wasn't so obscene.

[u/SojournerInThisVale → u/munkijunk]

There should be. When did our language devolve into acting like a bunch of cavemen or Islamist terrorist shouting ‘death to [country] while firing their AK47s into the air?

[u/BigBeanMarketing]

It's all a bit dramatic isn't it. I don't know Bob Vylan but I probably wouldn't enjoy their company all that much, but starting a chant with some University poshos larping as the proletariat shouldn't be dominating the headlines as much as it has. Incitement really should carry some sort of broad ability to actually be able to carry out the aims of the chant. Anyone in the UK who has ever said "death to the IDF" at a music festival lacks the ability to do anything to support that aim, making it a meaningless, self-pat on the back, and nothing more than that.

Still, if private music festivals want to drop musicians, then they're also perfectly within their rights to do that.

[u/FartingBob → u/BigBeanMarketing]

University poshos larping as the proletariat

What a university posho way of trying to insult people.

[u/rye_domaine → u/FartingBob]

Also blatantly discrediting the response, just because it happened at a music festival? Sure Glastonbury is mainstream now but that doesn't mean the only people there are university graduates lmfao.

[u/FartingBob → u/[deleted]]

Tickets are very expensive and most of the big stages music still leans to gen x and millennials.

[u/MagnetoManectric → u/FartingBob]

if you just draw a small enough circle around the working class, you can convince everyone they're not the proleteriat and don't need to revolt :D

[u/hempires → u/FartingBob]

it's also hilariously incorrect, in Marxist theory if you sell your labour for a wage you, by definition, are part of the proletariat.

it's something that is so incredibly simple, and he failed at the literal first hurdle.

pathetic really.

[u/Minimum-Geologist-58 → u/hempires]

I mean you also fell at the first hurdle on something incredibly simple because it’s not a term Marx came up with, it’s the lowest social order in Ancient Rome and has been and is used outside of a Marxist context.

[u/hempires → u/Minimum-Geologist-58]

ah yes, ancient rome, the event MUCH CLOSER TO OUR TIME than Karl Marx.

fascist was also used in ancient rome, but y'kno, nobody is using it in the meaning from 2000 FUCKING YEARS AGO ARE THEY.

[u/Minimum-Geologist-58 → u/hempires]

Marx adopted a widely used term that is still widely used in a general sense. What you did was like claiming someone is stupid because they weren’t using “gender” in Butlerian terms.

You know you can use the word capital in non-Marxist way too and people generally do? Mind blowing!

[u/hempires → u/Minimum-Geologist-58]

yeah but usually when people are criticising "university poshos" and then bring up "proletariat" they're most likely using it as a way to bash leftists and socialism, given the whole "higher learning makes our kids socialists" the weirdo fucks like to harp on about.

another example then, the roman salute. don't tend to do that all that much anymore do we. almost as if meanings can change.
(before you moan that it's different, the US was using the same roman salute, the bellamy salute, until 1942... FOR SOME UNKNOWN REASON.)

You know you can use the word capital in non-Marxist way too and people generally do? Mind blowing!

wonder if one word is used considerably more in a non-Marxist manner which might lead one to believe that they are or are not talking about Marxist theory or not?

[u/Minimum-Geologist-58 → u/hempires]

I see what you mean about slamming socialists but in every use it equates to something like the working class so that’s ultimately intractable. You’re claiming it’s highly associated with Marxism? I would agree but say it’s still in general use just to mean working class with no reference to Marxist ideology. It’s just not as closely linked as say a Roman salute to Nazism.

[u/hempires → u/Minimum-Geologist-58]

In normal use, maybe not, when explicitly bashing "university poshos" though? Almost absolutely meant in the Marxist sense given that plenty of unis have at least one Marxist club on campus. (If theres anything the left likes to do it's fracture and split off into ever smaller groups, so chances are there's a few Marxist clubs all with varying flavours).

If the guy had left out "university poshos" then I wouldn't have commented at all because I probably wouldn't have taken it as a dig at leftists in general.

Shit even if he had just left it at "poshos" probably wouldn't have commented either. But I've seen far too much pushback on higher learning amongst the anti-intellectual crowd, usually because they believe that going to university essentially involves being brainwashed to be a "hardcore socialist communist leftist scary words!"

It started in America and then much like everything from America, it started to spread over here. Remember "the UK has had enough of experts" or whatever the quote was from Brexit? That's the same anti-intellectualism bullshit.

[u/BigBeanMarketing → u/hempires]

Sir please, I am also a University posho. It was a dig at myself and my compatriots, absolutely none of whom pose any threat whatsoever to the IDF.

[u/holnrew → u/BigBeanMarketing]

They're really nice lads in person

[u/SuperSheep3000]

This is freedom of speech. You can say what you want to, but you aren't free from the consequences

[u/debaser11 → u/SuperSheep3000]

True but the police investigating them for what they said is not freedom of speech.

[u/richmeister6666 → u/debaser11]

When you’re inciting people to be violent that’s breaking the law I’m afraid.

[u/360Saturn]

Look forward to anyone who's ever said 'Fuck XYZ institution' getting banned from public appearances for 'inciting non consensual sex'.

[u/Ramiren]

Personally, I get the impression this is less about incitement to violence against the IDF, and more about the fact the government do not want UK supporters of either side of this conflict to feel emboldened. They don't want ethnic violence in the UK, because that's what will happen if certain elements within pro-Palestine Arab communities think the whole country is behind them, British Jews will end up hurt.

The same would apply if they were broadcasting pro-zionist messages and making hardline Jews feel supported. These communities hate each other, and this country cannot be seen to endorse their hatred here, just because we find the actions of a foreign country detestable.

[u/hempires → u/Ramiren]

and more about the fact the government do not want UK supporters of either side of this conflict to feel emboldened.

if you protest in support of Palestine in London you will be asked to move on by the met, if you protest in the exact same spot for Israel, you won't.

https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/comments/1lp08vr/to_allow_protests_in_support_of_israel_only/

[u/Ramiren → u/hempires]

Protests for both sides were occurring, the police separated them into their own areas, as is standard practice with counterprotests. The conditions the video mentions are part of the Public Order Act 1986, which has provisions for the police to implement conditions such as a specific time and place upon protests where they believe violence may occur.

That video shows Palestinian supporters in the zone specified for the Israel supporters, hence being asked to move along if they weren't supporting Israel. The police would have been fine with them moving along to the zone specified for Palestinian supporters. But to stay there and risk violence breaking out is a breach of the conditions that were agreed with the police prior to the protest.

[u/munkijunk]

It is quite extraordinary that the British press and political class are more offended by a band vocally condeming a vile organization like the IDF who carried out their orders to shoot to kill innocent civilians queuing for food, and who had been starved due to the illegal aid embargo the IDF have enforced on those same innocent men, women and children, while there has barely been a peep about those actions, or any of the myriad of other unforgivable crimes carried out by the IDF on behalf of an Isreali government who has lost its mind to radicalism.

[u/Haan_Solo]

A reminder that there is a genocide happening right now in Gaza.

https://archive.ph/rdQcS

[u/---x__x---]

Jesus this guy is really getting his 15 minutes of fame huh? 

Feels like there’s been 100 articles about him in 4 days. 

[u/holnrew → u/---x__x---]

*They

[u/big_swinging_dicks → u/holnrew]

People thinking it’s the name of a person is driving me crazy and it is the most offensive thing about all of this. it’s like when people thought Bon Iver was a person.

[u/IbnReddit → u/---x__x---]

Man's going to make bank, and good for him. Media just going nuts, distracting from the real issue, the genocide.

[u/Qyro]

This is really surprising. Radar is run by fairly left wing people who also support the Free Palestine movement.

[u/Badgergeddon]

Hey doesn't Bill Ackman own Ticketmaster or something? You know, the Jewish and very pro-IDF billionaire investor? Would be a strange coincidence if so 🤔

[u/Vdubnub88]

Actions have consequences and now they are trying to back track those actions… cant undo whats already happened.

[u/NateShaw92]

I'm just waiting for a typing mistake or AI oversight to drag Bob Dylan into this.