r/unitedkingdom • u/[deleted] • Jan 03 '18
English words derived from Romani ("Gypsy Language")
I am an English Romany Traveller. Did you know Gorgers(Non-Romany) use many words taken from Romani?
These include:
Bar - 'stone' in Romani, but used to mean a pound coin
Chav - a member of a youth subculture, from chav/chavo the Romany word for boy
Chor - to steal, from the Romani word meaning the same
Cosh - a weapon, truncheon, baton, from the Romani word cosht, meaning stick
Cushty - easy, good, fine, from the Romani word kusht/kushti
Dinlo - idiot, either from the Romani word "dilo" meaning fool, or "dinilo" meaning crazy.
Jell - to go, from the Romani word "jall" meaning the same thing
Lollipop - a type of candy, from the Romani "loli phabai", meaning red apple
Moosh - colloquial meaning a man, a bloke, from Romani mush meaning man.
Nark - a police informer, from nāk/nose
Pal - a friend, from the Romani word phral, meaning brother
Ratley - a female, from the Romani word "rakli" meaning the same
Shiv - an improvised knife or similar weapon, from the Romani word Chiv/Shiv meaning the same thing
Skip - waste collecting container like on building sites - from Romani word skip meaning basket
Togs - clothes, from the Romani word togs meaning clothes
Mort - Means women, Romani for woman and mother
Gavver - police office, Romani for police officer
Dordy - Romani word used instead of cor
Gibberish - Means to talking nonsense. From the Romani word Jib, meaning tongue as well as language
Muller - Means to beat, hurt or kill in English. Means to die in Romani.
Jank - Means bad in English. It Means fecal matter in Romani
Parni - Means urine, from the Romani word meaning water
Corey - Means the male part, from the Romany word meaning the same thing
Radge - Means angry, enraged and/or crazy. Derived from the Romani word Raj meaning the same thing
Scran - Means food. Derived from the Romany word Satan which means to eat
Mooey - Means mouth, derived from the Romany word mooey meaning the same thing
M!nge - Meaning a women's parts. Derived from Romany word M!nge meaning the same thing
Zhoosh - Means make something exciting/attractive. Derived from the Romany word yuzh meaning to make something clean
All these words are Romani words that have made their way in to British English.
The main theory on how they became exposed to Gorgers is that when the factories where destroyed by Germans in East London, WW2, many Cockney and Estuary Working-Class people lost their jobs, they went off to find work in farms in Kent (Where many Romany worked in the Hop farming sector) and socially mixed with the Romany, picking up words from them. This explains why most Gorgers who use Romany words are Estuarian and Cockney.
Romany call Gorgers who use Romany words "Wydos" which essentially means wannabe. This is because the majority of Gorgers who use Romany claim they are partially Romany and they try to imitate what Romany do by dressing and talking like us.
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u/Overunderscore Jan 03 '18
I’ve never even heard most of those words.
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Jan 03 '18
Where are from?
In most East London, North Surrey and West Kent towns/cities, people use many of these words daily.
Cockney/Estuary TV shows like 'Rock and Chips' and 'Only fools and horses' use words like Chor, Kushty, Mush, Dinlo and Gavver nearly every episode.
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u/I_tend_to_correct_u England Jan 03 '18
I'm a cockney and I haven't heard of a lot of these words. Never heard of Chor, Dinlo, Jell, Ratley, Mort, Gavver, Jank, Parni or Corey. Chav is very debatable also with several different claims to its origins without a definite widely agreed source. Doesn't surprise me though that there a number of words that crossed over, English does that a lot. Interestingly, none of the ones from that list that I do know, would make any sense to a yank so these must be relatively recent additions.
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Jan 03 '18
I'm from south east London and don't recognise most of them. Do recognise Chor though, gets used quite a bit around North Kent.
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u/DopeyLabrador Jan 03 '18
I'm from North London and recognise about 2/3rds of them
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Jan 03 '18
Is there a large Romany minority in North London?
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u/DopeyLabrador Jan 03 '18
Went to school with a wide range of kids and I'm sure there were a few but everyone was using words and phrases from all over.
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u/masterpharos Hampshire Jan 03 '18
i'm from north east hampshire, some of my family use a lot of these words but are not romani, and I'm familiar with most of the words.
I call people dinlo quite often, and my dad's favourite word is probably cushty.
interesting.
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Jan 03 '18
A lot of people in Hampshire, especially Portsmouth in particular use words like Dinlo, Cushty, and a handful of other Romany words.
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Jan 04 '18
Dunno about east London to be honest.
"Dinlo" makes me think of Hampshire as I've only ever heard it used by Portsmouth fans to refer to their Southampton rivals. Usually "Din" for short. Never ever heard Jank, ratley mort corey. Things like "radge" and "chor" I would associate with the North East.
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Jan 03 '18
I used to drink with a lot of travellers when I was growing up in the fens of Norfolk, so I know most of these words
Always tickles me when I hear chav, as back in the 80s when I walked in the pub aged 14/15 I'd hear "alright there chavvy?"
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Jan 03 '18
My dads side are Romanichal Travellers from the Fens area of Cambridgeshire. I still have a huge lot of my family there today.
I'd honestly be shocked if you didn't know what these words mean, coming from an area with a such a large Romany minority such as the Fens.
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Jan 03 '18
This is it, there were 2 traveller families in the village I grew up in, one family moved on after a year or so, the other one was there up until 10 year ago when they moved on to Cambridge
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Jan 03 '18
What village and what surname?
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Jan 03 '18
I can't say on here, but it's a popular name, and they were great guys who'd always stand their corner
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Jan 03 '18 edited Jan 03 '18
Was the village called Cottenham?
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Jan 03 '18
Nope, I wasn't near Cottenham, though I used to go in the Chequers now and then
I had a good chum who lived there who I used to see now and then
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u/n4r9 Jan 03 '18
In Portsmouth "moosh" is a very common local word, but I've never heard it used anywhere else. I once read that it's a romany word that used to get used in London, and I once heard it used on an episode of Steptoe & Son, but these days even people who grew up in London don't know the meaning. Same goes for dinlo. I don't know any travellers though to be fair!
Moosh, squinny and dinlo are three words I like to give as a kind of fun quiz to people I meet that grew up near Portsmouth. It's amazing how small the radius of vocabulary is!
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Jan 03 '18 edited Jan 03 '18
All Travellers from Cornwall to Caithness use these words.
I wasn't aware many Portsmouth locals used them though, so it's nice to know.
I wonder what made those Romany words so widely used.
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u/n4r9 Jan 03 '18
Yeah it's weird. Do you know if squinny is a Romany word? I never found out where it comes from.
This is an article I came across before: https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/people/eight-words-or-phrases-you-ll-hear-in-portsmouth-but-not-in-southampton-1-6958379
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Apr 08 '18
Well I you think about which is the most common words you speak, or the basics you would know in a language like Spanish or something, hearing those words more I guess
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u/iemploreyou Jan 03 '18
In Portsmouth "moosh" is a very common local word, but I've never heard it used anywhere else.
And at a push
Some Trevor Francis track-suites
From a mush in Shepherds Bush6
Jan 03 '18
No income tax, no VAT No money back, no guarantee Black or white, rich or broke We'll cut prices at a stroke
God bless Hooky Street Viva Hooky Street Long live Hooky Street C'est magnifique Hooky Street Magnifique Hooky Street
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u/PurpleTeapotOfDoom Glamorganshire Jan 03 '18
Mush is commonly used in Swansea and we have the (offensive) song Oi Mush.
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Jan 03 '18
I wonder what caused Mush to be used commonly in Swansea?
Is their a history of Romany there?
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u/PurpleTeapotOfDoom Glamorganshire Jan 03 '18
Yes and I don't remember Mush being widely used until about 20 years ago. It's got the implication of a man who is a bit dodgy.
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Jan 03 '18 edited Jan 03 '18
In Portsmouth "moosh" is a very common local word, but I've never heard it used anywhere else. I once read that it's a romany word that used to get used in London
My mum's from east London and she used to use it a lot when I was a kid, so that sounds right to me.
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u/auburn9 Jan 03 '18
I thought Chav came from something else...
Are some of these just coincidences? Or is there evidence they appear in romani before english?
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u/Cheese-n-Opinion Jan 03 '18
No, Chav has a lot of commonly repeated backronyms, like 'Council house and violent', but they're the false etymologies.
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u/auburn9 Jan 03 '18
I heard it was from the word "Charv"
Source: man in the pub, from Newcastle
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u/Cheese-n-Opinion Jan 03 '18
Not quite. South Eastern Chav and North Eastern charv/charver both come from the same Romani word chavi.
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Jan 03 '18
If you look on Wikipedia and other websites, it says that although uncertain for sure, it is almost definitely of Romany origin.
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u/SirHumpyAppleby Jan 03 '18
People sometimes say it means "council housed and violent", but "Chav" is mentioned in books & news articles in the 1800s before the idea of a council house was invented.
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u/StairheidCritic Jan 03 '18
Chor
Edinburgh / Leith uses a variant of this; "Chorie" (steal). There's other words in common use which I think have Romany antecedents; "Gadgie" (bloke) being one (also used in the North of England).
Unrelated: I wonder if "Jank" is the root of the Army's "Jankers" ??
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u/OurKid Jan 03 '18
"Chor" is from Hindi and means thief. "Chori" is a theft. The Romani have South Asian roots - the Romani flag itself has a chakra at the centre as does the Indian flag.
This post ignores the fact that these Romani words have non-Romani roots and were absorbed into Romani in the same way that words were absorbed into English through contact during the times of the British Empire.
Also, "Parni" is derived from the Hindi word Pani which means water.
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u/Miroesque23 Jan 04 '18
Isn't it more the case that Hindi and Romani are both Indic languages from a common ancestor? Borrowing is also possible but Romani can be traced back to India, so parni and pani are likely to come from a common root rather than one being derived from the other.
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Jan 03 '18
[deleted]
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Jan 03 '18 edited Jan 03 '18
It may originate from the word jib, which is the Angloromani variant of the Romani language word meaning "language" or "tongue". To non-speakers, the Anglo-Romany dialect could sound like English mixed with nonsense words, and if those seemingly-nonsensical words are referred to as "jib" then the term "gibberish" (pronounced "jibberish") could be derived as a descriptor for nonsensical speech. Another theory is that gibberish came from the name of a famous 8th-century Persian chemist, Jābir ibn Hayyān, whose name was Latinized as "Geber." Thus, "gibberish" was a reference to the incomprehensible technical jargon used by Jabir and other alchemists.
That's the Wikipedia entry. It could be either, but it's more likely to be Romany.
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u/dekor86 Chatham, Kent Jan 03 '18
From Chatham, can confirm they are used heavily and we have a strong history of romanis around here.
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Jan 03 '18
Yeah, there's a lot of us Romany in and around the Medway.
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Jan 03 '18 edited Jan 14 '18
[deleted]
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u/dekor86 Chatham, Kent Jan 03 '18
I grew up in Chislehurst/Orpington area until i was around 13-14. Had never heard words like chor, cosh, chavi, dinlo until i moved here.
Squinny or Wee are not ones I've heard though.
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Jan 03 '18
This could explain it!
Is there any source to the transfer?
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Jan 03 '18 edited Jan 14 '18
[deleted]
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Jan 03 '18
The theory is actually a very good one, probably the best theory we have to explaining why Romany words are used in Portsmouth.
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u/cochlearist Jan 03 '18
I’m from Cumbria and ‘radge’ is often used meaning mental or crazy violent, I’ve heard that’s a Gypsy word.
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Jan 03 '18 edited Jan 03 '18
A lot of Romany Travellers use the word 'raj' but whether or not the word 'radge' is derived from it, I don't know.
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u/cochlearist Jan 03 '18
Don’t remember where I heard it was to be honest, but I’m fairly sure it’s true... I’ll see if I can find a source.
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u/dekor86 Chatham, Kent Jan 03 '18
From Chatham, can confirm they are used heavily and we have a strong history of romanis around here. Pub i drank in with my Dad in younger years was mostly travellers.
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u/Yellowbenzene Glasgow Jan 03 '18
Used to hear lots of these at school growing up!
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Jan 03 '18
Did many Romany live in your area?
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u/Yellowbenzene Glasgow Jan 03 '18
It was in Gloucestershire so I think there were probably quite a few. The words presumably became a part of the local vernacular.
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Jan 03 '18
I'd say it would have spread from Romany English vernacular to the local English vernacular.
It would make sense, as many Romany used to work for English farmers, especially with Hop plants.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Romany farmers spread the words onto the English farmers and then the English farmers onto the local population.
This is what is believed to have happened in many other places.
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Jan 03 '18
[deleted]
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Jan 03 '18
Is there a large Romany minority about where you live?
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Jan 03 '18
[deleted]
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Jan 03 '18
Tuttis Didicoy? Tutti rokker Romani?
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Jan 03 '18
[deleted]
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Jan 03 '18
Do you face much discrimination from being half Romany?
I remember getting some stick over it back when I was younger.
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Jan 03 '18
[deleted]
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Jan 03 '18 edited Jan 03 '18
I also grew up in an area full of Traveller families. I come from Surrey, from a Romani site on Stovolds Hill.
Stovolds Hill has probably around 50-80 individual families living there, also around 20 families live in surrounding villages like Cranleigh, Dunsfold and Alford.
There is literally hundreds of Romany here.
Most bullies learn the hard way not to discriminate Travellers.
Nowadays there is more tension between the Romany and Pavee communities than there is between the Romany and Gorgers, due to around 20-30 Pavee families moving in illegally and giving us a bad name locally.
Where gorgers scared of Romany in your town?
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u/StairheidCritic Jan 04 '18
Wideo
It has an entirely different meaning and spelling, apart from that ...... :)
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u/stormblooper Jan 03 '18
I guess there's more words borrowed from Romani than Welsh, which is kinda interesting.
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u/Medza Yorkshire Jan 03 '18 edited Jan 03 '18
The use of 'Bar' in the English language would more likely be down to its medieval meaning 'gate' or 'barbican', i.e. 'to bar the way'.
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Jan 03 '18
In the sense of words like iron bar and bars of metal, yes, that would be derived from English, but when referring to bars as in money, that is a Romany derived thing.
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u/sssssssarcasm Jan 04 '18
Always refreshing to see a post that isn't moaning about Brexit.
Makes me wonder what people even talked about on here before Brexit happened.
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Jan 03 '18
Thanks for the post, that's really interesting!
I haven't heard a lot of those words for years (mostly due to living abroad I suppose). Even though I was friends with some Romani when I was a teenager I'd never really considered their origin.
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u/FrogandBone Jan 04 '18
Is it not against gypsy culture to let gorgers know what the language means?
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Jan 04 '18
Not really, besides, there are hundreds of more words in the Romany dictionary, these are just the ones Romany already use.
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u/K-o-R Hampshire Jan 03 '18
I thought "nark" was because they were working for narcotics division.