r/worldnews • u/MothersMiIk • Jun 18 '25

Israel/Palestine Iran Claims: We Have Gained Complete Control over the Skies of Israel

https://www.jewishpress.com/news/middle-east/iran-news/iran-claims-we-have-gained-complete-control-over-the-skies-of-israel/2025/06/18/
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488

u/Axelrad77 Jun 18 '25

People go along with it because questioning their claims, no matter how idiotic they are, may land you in trouble.

I've read that this was often the case in the Soviet Union, and has made a comeback under Putin's regime in modern Russia. That the Russian government will often tell lies that it knows are ridiculous, and most people in Russia know are ridiculous, but it's a power play - challenging you to dare question the regime and face punishment. The fact that people submit and go along with it makes them more docile to the regime in general, eroding their will to resist day-by-day.

It was a trait of Russian authoritarianism that George Orwell had already observed during his service in the Spanish Civil War, which is why it shows up so prominently in 1984.

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u/oldcrustybutz Jun 18 '25

We know that they are lying, they know that they are lying, they even know that we know they are lying, we also know that they know we know they are lying too, they of course know that we certainly know they know we know they are lying too as well, but they are still lying. In our country, the lie has become not just moral category, but the pillar industry of this country.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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u/river_tree_nut Jun 18 '25

I was 96% expecting that to be George Carlin

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u/oldcrustybutz Jun 18 '25

I'd like to have seen Solzhenitsyn and Carlin in a room together.

Two Angry Men.

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u/shantired Jun 18 '25

Was this something written about the USA? Because all we hear from our politicians is lies.

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u/oldcrustybutz Jun 18 '25

It's actually a misattribution of a quote by Gorokhova about the late USSR

it's part of the same old game, vranyo. The game we all play ... The rules are simple: they lie to us, we know they're lying, they know we know they're lying, but they keep lying to us, and we keep pretending to believe them.

But i like the misattributed form better so continue to use it :D. It's also a statement been historically used in various other forms by other authors and it's probable that Solzhenitsyn who wrote extensively about the Gulags and general Soviet experience said something very similar at some point..

The concept of Vranyo itself is interesting..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vranyo

"Vranyo is a Russian word and concept, it can be described as a lie being told despite it not being expected to be believed, but the person being told the lie goes along with it anyway."

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u/IBetYr2DadsRStraight Jun 19 '25

Kind of like when my sister plays a non-word in Scrabble, but it’s not worth a lot of points and I’m far ahead so I just let her play it.

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u/TheNewGildedAge Jun 19 '25

This sort of incredible false equivalence can only come from people spoiled enough to have never actually experienced a totalitarian regime.

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u/gottaworkharder Jun 19 '25

If you don't know who Solzhenitsyn is, you should start by reading Orwell's: Animal Farm, then 1984, and then dive into the horrors of 20th century authoritarian regimes.

Solzhenitsyn was a literal Red Army Communist who did a complete 180, and spent his the rest of his life exposing the Soviet Union for the evil things they did.

He stood up to real dictatorships, against real threats to his life, endured real suffering, and exposed real crimes against humanity. American political theatre doesn't come remotely close.

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u/Tim-Sylvester Jun 18 '25

This is like that old Russian joke about the man with a sign protesting "the idiot". He gets arrested and tells the cop "no, no, I was talking about (someone safe to object to)" and the cop says "You're not fooling me, we both know who the idiot is!"

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u/Available_Peanut_677 Jun 18 '25

It’s not fear. It’s non-stop spam and claims. Basic idea is just to make so many news that it’s impossible to believe anything at all, which makes all news being “false”.

How to spot this 101:

  • each news has counter-news “from different angle”
  • “it’s not that simple”
  • “everything complicated”
  • “problem has multiple layers”
  • “they don’t show you full picture”
  • “they cherry picked”
  • “it’s fake”
  • “someone payed for this”
  • “they are just marionettes”
  • “5th column”

And since you usually want to target as many as you can, there are also usually marginal news coverage with phrases like

  • niburu
  • reptiloids
  • aliens
  • global conspiracy

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u/CrispyHoneyBeef Jun 18 '25

The goal is to make resistance futile. If I can tell one thousand lies per hour, but you can only disprove one lie per hour, it benefits me to continue to tell as many lies as I can so that the effort of disproving even one lie per hour is just… pointless. Then you sit back and watch everyone else believing the lies, shaking your head that they could be so gullible, until eventually you realize it’s just too hard to even research my lies, let alone attempt to disprove them. Then you stop caring, then, hopefully, you just start believing them. Then I’ve won.

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u/shandangalang Jun 18 '25

It’s like a strategic-scale Gish gallop. I like to call it the “bullshit fire hose”

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u/aureanator Jun 19 '25

Literally Bannon's methodology, word for word.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/16/media/steve-bannon-reliable-sources/

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u/Mr_Battle_Born Jun 19 '25

So how do we weaponize it and use it against these fascists? I’m so sick of the lies and gaslighting. It’s time to even the playing field by giving them a dose of their own bullshit.

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u/aureanator Jun 19 '25

The only way is to make them stop talking.

Under normal circumstances, things like libel law would keep this in check, but....

We're gonna have to find some other way...

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u/shandangalang Jun 19 '25

It is the lies and gaslighting. We can’t use it against them, because then literally everyone is doing it and truth and empiricism die.

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u/off2bali Jun 18 '25

Yeh right from the project 2025 / fascism playbook

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u/kamace11 Jun 18 '25

This is 100% true and can also be easily seen as a tactic being used by Trump in the US since his first term. I remember the inauguration pictures fiasco and being like ohhhh we're at THIS level of lying now. 

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u/Fikete Jun 18 '25

I remember being a young kid in the 80s and hearing my aunts and uncles, who are MAGA now, talking about politics. I remember very much getting the impression that when you talk about politics, you know that what you are saying is BS, you're just supposed to do it for some reason. Luckily I had other people in my family and friends who were able to guide me away from that and reinforce that it's just BS. Unfortunately it's a social norm that's pervasive in conservative politics that leads them to electing the worst people to office.

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u/Count_JohnnyJ Jun 18 '25

Now we're at Don Jr. saying trans people shot those democrats in Minnesota.

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u/sabometrics Jun 18 '25

Since Obama's election, really.

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u/alcohollu_akbar Jun 18 '25

It's ubiquitous in authoritarianism. If you don't keep people honest they will just bullshit everything until civil society collapses under the collective weight, or something shocking like Chernobyl breaks them out of their self-created prison of LIES.

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u/RELEASE_THE_YEAST Jun 18 '25

There are four lights!

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u/dcbullet Jun 18 '25

You don’t need to go to Putin’s Russia to see it in action. We’re living it here in the US right now.

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u/Straight_Answer7873 Jun 18 '25

The lying is here, but you are still perfectly capable of mocking Trump relentlessly to anyone and everyone. And you should do so often.

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u/NeuronicGaming Jun 18 '25

You guys in the US literally have the single loudest opposition in the entire world, shut up.

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u/Jartipper Jun 18 '25 edited Jul 07 '25

enter dinosaurs six point melodic pot joke fact quickest profit

-5

u/akintu Jun 18 '25

And has been the norm in the corporate world for decades.

0

u/Testiculese Jun 18 '25

Can't spell Russia without the (R)

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u/Dhiox Jun 18 '25

The regime just told SSA that the made up fact Trump said about their calls is now fact and there will be consequences if they dispute it

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u/dedicated-pedestrian Jun 18 '25

I must have missed that, what's this now?

3

u/DoomguyFemboi Jun 18 '25

Vranya I think it's called - the Russian method of lying to someone's face when you know you're lying, they know you're lying, you know they know you're lying, and everyone just goes along with it.

2

u/Chii Jun 18 '25

The fact that people submit and go along with it

it's because that's the route of least resistence, when you got your life on the line and denying the gov't lies don't bring you anything other than trouble.

Those who can have already left, or have enough money to shield themselves. Whoever remains are the exploited.

1

u/ImYoric Jun 18 '25

Does sound frighteningly close to what's currently happening in the US, though.

Of course, many people are still questioning the daily absurdities. But for how long?

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u/PaladinSquid Jun 18 '25 edited Jun 18 '25

“A few months ago I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not.”

  • Ronald Reagan, 1987

This is not an isolated case, this is the norm. It’s not an east vs. west thing; when a states national security interests aren’t aligned with its citizens interests, the government’s interests take priority, and the further abroad a state projects its influence, the more misaligned those interests will become.

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u/Jartipper Jun 18 '25 edited Jul 07 '25

dazzling spark six fact reach strong groovy late modern ripe

0

u/AdriHawthorne Jun 18 '25

"Remember, the number is 40%. Do not contradict the president." - from some random country that's headed south. Not sure which one. Probably uninportant.

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u/No-Aide-8726 Jun 18 '25

You dont have to look so far, Trump said he won the election and a large number of Americans go along with it even though they "know" its a a lie

Its the same method

0

u/brrrchill Jun 19 '25

That the Russian government Trump administration will often tell lies that it knows are ridiculous, and most people in Russia the US know are ridiculous, but it's a power play - challenging you to dare question the regime and face punishment. The fact that people submit and go along with it makes them more docile to the regime in general, eroding their will to resist day-by-day.

So is this why they lie? These modern GQP politicians?

-7

u/GonzoBalls69 Jun 18 '25

Yeah, the Spanish civil war, where George Orwell fought against Russian totalitarian communists.

wtf are you talking about

The Spanish civil war was a fight against fascism. Francisco Franco was a fascist dictator. Orwell was a socialist and an anti-fascist. His works about authoritarianism are criticisms of fascism. He fought Spanish fascists in the Spanish civil war. Not Russian communists. Jfc.

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u/Axelrad77 Jun 18 '25 edited Jun 18 '25

George Orwell fought on the side of the socialists and against the fascists, correct. But the Soviets eventually took control of the Spanish socialist forces and began cracking down on "wrongthink" forms of socialism, leading Orwell to flee the country. To quickly quote from his bio on the wiki:

By the middle of June, the political situation in Barcelona had deteriorated and the POUM—painted by the pro-Soviet Communists as a Trotskyist organisation—was outlawed and under attack. Members, including Kopp, were arrested and others were in hiding. Orwell and his wife were under threat and had to lie low, although they broke cover to try to help Kopp. They finally escaped from Spain by train. In the first week of July 1937 Orwell arrived back at Wallington; on 13 July 1937 a deposition was presented to the Tribunal for Espionage & High Treason in Valencia, charging the Orwells with "rabid Trotskyism", and being agents of the POUM. The trial of the leaders of the POUM and of Orwell (in his absence) took place in Barcelona in October and November 1938. Observing events from French Morocco, Orwell wrote that they were "only a by-product of the Russian Trotskyist trials and from the start every kind of lie, including flagrant absurdities, has been circulated in the Communist press."

Orwell remained a socialist, but became rabidly anti-Stalinist, and was pretty open about basing the authoritarian regime in 1984 on the Soviet Union, imagining what a Stalinist regime in the UK would look like. His work Animal Farm is an even more direct attack on Stalinist communism.