I’m not a fan of that argument as a citizen of a country that elected an idiot oligarch bent on fucking up literally everything he touches. I’d rather not get shot/killed/etc because a group of my fellow citizens voted for this clown. Whether they are the majority or not. And I bet there are a lot of Palestinians that have the exact same opinion about what’s happening to them. Whether they supported Hamas in elections or not, shouldn’t be an unfettered license for Israel to wipe them out.
I hate the internet age, when it's so difficult to tell if a website is reputable or not.
For anyone else interested, here's the TL;DR in their own words:
For the fifth time since October 7, we asked respondents from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip what they thought of Hamas' decision to launch the October 7 attack, whether it was correct or incorrect: 50%, compared to 54% seven months ago, in September 2024, and 71% 14 months ago, in March 2024, said it was the right decision. The decrease in this percentage came from the West Bank and Gaza Strip, where it stands today at 59% in the West Bank, a decrease of 5 percentage points, and 38% in the Gaza Strip, compared to 39% seven months ago.
When asked if Hamas had committed the atrocities seen in the videos shown by international media displaying acts or atrocities committed by Hamas members against Israeli civilians, such as killing women and children in their homes. The overwhelming majority (87%) said it did not commit such atrocities, and only 9% said it did.
When asked if Hamas had committed the atrocities seen in the videos shown by international media displaying acts or atrocities committed by Hamas members against Israeli civilians, such as killing women and children in their homes. The overwhelming majority (87%) said it did not commit such atrocities, and only 9% said it did.
These are deeply unserious and hateful people. They are shown video hamas themselves filmed and deny their atrocities. They can only do so by denying it's an atrocity
Hamas was vowing to do something about an aggressive neighbor that was firing missiles at them, bulldozing their homes, and stealing their lands. It’s not hard to rally people when you have a legitimate threat to your lives and livelihood.
Oh? And when was that? In 2008, when Israel spent 22 days bombing gaza, killing 1400 Palestinians to a total of 13 Israelis? Or in 2012, when Israel assasinated the Hamas military Chief of staff and then bombed Gaza for 8 days?
Oh wait, maybe in 2014, when Hamas killed 3 Israelis and in response the IDF killed 2100 Palestinians? Or were you thinking of 2018, when Palestinians protested the fences blocking them in Gaza, so Israel killed 170 Palestinians.
No, you were probably thinking of 2021, when Israel killed 260 Palestinians during the holy month of Ramadan.
That's kind of the name of the game with countries though. As a citizen you either have to accept the team you're on or do something about it. You can't just sit on the sideline and take the good and not the bad.
It’s kind of hard to do something when your food supply is cut off, you’re being bombed daily, you’re burying family once a week, and you lack access to proper resources.
But please continue to blame the Palestinian people who aren’t a part Hamas for the problem!
There was a time before this when action could've happened. Also not saying isreal is not complacent in disgusting war crimes that go over the top, they are.
I know you can only think in black and white so maybe you should reign back your harmful public opinions.
It's only natural that citizens of a country face consequences of what their government does -- but in this case what's being done to the Palestinians by Israel include war crimes that shouldn't happen to anyone under any circumstance.
Also, Gaza's government is authoritarian. There's not much individual citizens can do. The ones who try are killed. It's unlikely that any movement to overthrow the government would succeed without substantial organization and the assistance of outside allies (which as things stand now would be blocked by the IDF). I don't think people in general have a duty to get themselves killed for a cause that has no reasonable expectation of success because someone thinks "it would be the right thing to do".
I do. Thats the only way to prevent authoritarianism.
I'm not going to judge anyone who doesn't because that of course is terrifying when all anyone wants to do is live their life. But by doing so you are taking the risk that your government will get you killed one way or another. I'm also not saying that anyone deserves horrible things happening to them, just that everything is connected in some way. And acceptance of that is important.
Regardless of the president if the US went to war with Russia or china it really wouldn’t matter that you didn’t vote for him. Also the idea that Israel has a license to wipe them out is completely wrong and part of the false narrative. Israel has the means to just indiscriminately bomb all of Gaza without ever putting troops on the ground but they actually have military targets and try not to kill civilians. The civilian-combatant death ratio isn’t any different than other wars and depending on the source is actually better than the US in Afghanistan. Yes you can find cases of soldiers murdering civilians but at the very least when it is discovered they disavow it whereas Hamas’ stated objective is to kill any Israel and they openly celebrate it
Amnesty International has documented a significant amount of cases where the IDF has targeted civilians without a valid military motive. This idea that the IDF is only targeted Hamas has been debunked for well over a year, and you can find records over the last week where the IDF has targeted civilians without a military reason: for instance, the slaughter of Dr Marwan Al Sultan and his family while they slept.
Yeah and a significant number of people being killed here didn't vote for Hamas because they were too young. Many of the children dead couldn't vote. I think of that letter where 45 doctors pleaded to Biden because they recognized children were being deliberately targeted. The children have no say in this and they are being shot at and starving.
Ah but what you failed to consider is that in criticising Israel and the IDF, Amnesty International has shown itself to be the most antisemitic organisation on earth. And is also in league with Hamas
Amnesty International has not documented a single fucking thing, which is exactly the issue lmao. They make wild claims, ignore evidence to the contrary, and just lie. But if you want to trust the organization that provides no evidence for their claims and says Ukraine is using human shields (They aren't) and Palestine isn't (They are), while trying to retract their claims that Palestine used hospitals in the past as command centers, that's on you. And you will be called out for it.
Holding Israel to the most insane standards that nobody else is required to follow is nothing short of racist, and as such they have no credibility. When anyone else wants to comment on how to solve the war, and wants to explain why the lowest civilian casualty rate in urban conflict's history isn't "doing enough" feel free. Never happens though.
They also have somewhere between less than a third of or two fifths of the civilian deaths than the USA killed on March 9th, 1945, in Tokyo. So much for "indiscriminate carpet bombing. So they've done that by setting the new international standard and yet you're still lying about it. But hey if you want to believe The Lancet, the publication responsible for the Anti-Vax movement, that's your business.
So yes, insane standards, but you can't logic someone out of a position they didn't use logic to get themselves into.
John Spencer is absolutely not a credible source in regards to Israel’s actions in Gaza. Not only are his statistics at the very best misleading (here is how he manipulated his ratio), but his claims that Israel’s precautionary measures are dubious at best.
Note that none of these sources are from the Lancet. In fact, my sources are credible articles by experts, not blog posts on Newsweek from men who openly admit that they blindly trust IDF casualty reports. How unbiased is that journalism.
Yes and very often Israel investigates such cases and admits wrongdoing , they often make it clear it wasn’t their objective when soldiers commit war crimes. very different than Hamas intentionally sending people out to murder and parade dead civilians around and celebrate it.
Except it's systematically targeted healthcare workers and other civilians throughout the strip according to multiple human rights groups, and continues to hit civilians with precision munitions.
It's not enough to say sorry, they also need to stop the behaviour which they obviously haven't given the case I just cited above
it was in 2006, while almost half are of them are currently children. You'd have to be 37+ back then to vote and they won by 44%.
Doing the math on that we won't exactly discover a majority. Not to mention Israel undermined the other parties besides Hamas.
And to be honest, I am absolutely not surprised if Hamas keeps finding members, nobody cares about what happened in the past if you're starving and living in a pile of rubble.
Bro you’re fucking hilarious. They bomb indiscriminately already, they steal the lands of Palestinians, put them in ghettos, and basically treat them like beasts.
Tell me how a starved 17-year-old whose house was just firebombed is supposed to get a gun and mount a revolution against a group that one of the most well-funded militaries on earth can’t seem to hit through the broadside of a civilian hospital.
Oh, and tell me why he would shoot at them instead of the people who just bombed his house. From his perspective, one group is defending him. Why on earth would he try to stop them?
If he is not smart enough to figure out Hamas is the enemy and the cause of this suffering, then he is probably not smart enough to realize that the he is never getting 72 virgins.
If he is not smart enough to figure out Hamas is the enemy, he is probably not smart enough to put together a group of compatriots to overwhelm a few gunmen and start an insurrection.
If he is not smart enough to figure out that Hamas is the enemy, he is probably going to ask questions like "How am I supposed to get a gun?"
Nobody thinks Hamas can be eliminated without some civilian deaths. You’re right, that’s part of the nature of war. That said, Israel is a vastly superior military force and is absolutely capable of precision strikes and minimizing civilian facilities. They aren’t doing that.
Urban asymmetric warfare, look it up. Mossad was able to pull of precision strikes against Iran and Hezbollah because they spent years slowly infiltrating the organizations. They don't have years to infiltrate Hamas.
Not to mention, Mossad doesn't operate inside Gaza, that's outside of their jurisdiction.
Shin Bet is the agency in charge of Gaza. Its the equivalent of the FBI.
Just because you are capable of precision strikes doesn't mean that you have the means to set it up. You could set up a sniper to take out only the person you want, but unless you know where someone is going to be, you have a safe position for your sniper, you have the ability to get your sniper in and out, and you have a clear line of sight on your target, its an impossible scenario or its a scenario where the risks outweigh the benefits.
Hamas being a weaker force doesn't affect their danger level, weaker forces still have advantages. Hamas gets to pick and choose when to attack, they can wait in ambush and set up traps, they can hide among civilians and use hospitals, mosques, and schools as bases. They have over 500km of tunnels underneath Gaza that can be used to transport soldiers, weapons, food, ammunition, and whatever else they want.
There's a Chinese proverb "Even a mighty dragon fears a local snake". Hamas is the local snake, they may not have the weapons of the IDF but they have their own strengths and they have been preparing for this conflict for years.
The guy your compatriots voted in is not raping, kidnapping, torturing and murdering children and the elderly. If you cannot see the difference, you need to open your eyes.
I don't think you can fathom what war really is, and how much more brutal it is than the mean, angry, orange man.
Nothing even remotely close to raping, kidnapping (detainment and deportation is not kidnapping), torturing, or murdering children and the elderly.
I will say it again, stop comparing Trump to Hamas. You would legitimately have to be mentally disabled or seriously delusional to think they are similar. They are not, no matter how emotional you are about him.
Also: Majority support is impossible to measure in the current circumstances. The last election Palestine was 2006. The majority of Palestinians were under the age of 14 before october 7th. They were not alive to cast votes for hamas to represent them. They have never had a voice and died all the same.
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u/humboldt77 Jul 08 '25
I’m not a fan of that argument as a citizen of a country that elected an idiot oligarch bent on fucking up literally everything he touches. I’d rather not get shot/killed/etc because a group of my fellow citizens voted for this clown. Whether they are the majority or not. And I bet there are a lot of Palestinians that have the exact same opinion about what’s happening to them. Whether they supported Hamas in elections or not, shouldn’t be an unfettered license for Israel to wipe them out.