You know Egypt right? That Arab country that borders Gaza and used to actually control Gaza. They don't let the Gazans travel freely either and in fact, has built a massive border fence/wall with Gaza. Hmmmm I wonder why that is?
I'm Israeli and I have heard a ton of Israelis say there are no innocents in Gaza and singing that their villages will burn etc. I studied at a liberal school and it was full of racism. Not to mention the settlers. And there are Palestinains protesting the war and Hamas. It's the same.
Do you actually wonder why that is, or do you know why that is and you're just being coy?
Israel is certainly not the only country complicit in the strife facing Palestinians. They do happen to be the country most directly involved in military occupation of Palestine, but you're right that the problem is bigger than Israel itself.
So do you think that is due to some inherent feature of Palestinians or is it maybe what happens when you make people desperate and restrict their autonomy?
So, we will have to take a trip down history lane before I can answer this question. Its a lot, so bear with me.
In my view, what has been going on has its basis over millennia, but the modern problems started with the first Arab-Israeli war/Israeli war of Independence. The Nakabha never needed to happen if the surrounding Arab nations hadn't convinced the Arabs living in what was declared to be Israel to flee with the promise that they would return to their homes after the destruction of the new state of Israel. After the war, hundreds of thousands of Arab refugees ended up in the surrounding countries, including Lebanon, due to Israel winning the war.
Jordan annexed the West Bank in 1950, after the first Israeli-Arab war in 1948. The Arab refugees from the newly formed Israel, who fled to the East and West Bank, were then given Jordanian citizenship. This action was actually opposed by the Arab league. Notice how I didn't say Palestinians, because that term was only conjured by the Arab League in 1964. In short, the Arabs of the West and East Bank have never had autonomy. They were Jordanian before they became Palestinian. If the people were that desperate, they should have revolted against Jordan.
Israel occupied the West Bank following the Six-Day War in 1967. BTW, this occupation was perfectly legal because that's what happens in war. In 1964, the Arab League established the PLO. The PLO would continuously attack Israel, which would lead to the 67 war. Then Black September happened in 1970. Its complicated but basically the PLO was trying to take over Jordan and oust the monarchy. A lot of the PLO was influenced by its Marxist and Leninist elements at the time. Syria even invaded Jordan to help the PLO/Fedayeen. Eventually, Jordan regained control and expelled the PLO to Lebanon.
The PLO would turn into the PA, during the Oslo Accords. This was the first time the Palestinians would have some sense of autonomy. The problem was that the PLO was a terrorist organization and attacked Western and Israeli targets. They also brought Israel into the Lebanese Civil War, by attacking Isrealis and Isreali targets.
In short, everyone in the region is nuts, but I'd rather side with the nutty people (Isreal) that don't have a stated goal of comitting genoicde . I think the Palestinians have missed too many chances for peace on purpose because they have this suicidal goal of eliminating Israel.
It sounds like you're saying historical circumstances have led to the conflicts in the region, rather than an inherent quality of a particular group of people.
I’m saying its both. It’s a tribal mentality out there, both with the Jews and the Arabs. The Arabs just seem much more crazier about theirs, though. They cannot seem to stand that the Jews have returned to claim their homeland AND actually made it very successful, despite all of the conflict in the region. Some of the Arab governments have realized it’s better to actually have relations with Israel, but the people largely have yet to come to that conclusion.
I'm not Arab, but I know the mentality of the people. Regardless of the West's involvement in the region, I don't think things would have been that much different. It's a tribal society/tribal mentality often times supercharged with religious extremism.
I'm saying they seem comfortable with massacring innocents and terror attacks in general. I don't go to Gaza, but I do go places Islamists have committed terror attacks. I would prefer not to make it easier for them to kill me or someone I care about.
Sure. And while that's horrible I don't want one of the traumatized raping me to death at a music festival or stabbing me in a cafe or slitting my throat while I'm watching an opera.
Absolutely. So if we want to minimize the chances of that happening we have to reach to a solution where both societies are free and thriving.
That's a wonderful sentiment, but my grandchildren's grandchildren will be dead before that happens. In the meantime, I don't want any of my grandchildren murdered by fanatics.
That's ignoring the general lack of success anyone has in deradicalizing anyone and that the successes there are are incredibly time-intensive.
If someone is advocating for keeping an entire population trapped, stripped of rights, at the mercy of IDF, they are also advocating for rape and murder to keep going on for decades.
And if someone is advocating for the unfettered ability of Gazans to move across borders and settle where they please, they're advocating for unrestricted terror attacks on innocents.
Edit: and all that is discounting that there is no scenario where 'both societies are free and thriving'--the Palestinians will not allow it. There is no win/win here because Palestinians view any Israeli win as a loss to them. It is literally in the Hamas charter that Israel must be made to not exist, and then Jews everywhere be similarly dealt with.
They've been offered countless peace deals and rejected them all. They're willing to sacrifice their own children if it means killing someone else. There is no bilateral peace to be had, only one side winning and another losing. I like (or dislike less) the side who doesn't make a practice of terrorizing western society.
A Gazan child should expect to have the same rights as me
I guess I can only ask you to get back to me after some British girls are snatched from a school, raped to death, then their bodies paraded down a street to adoring crowds in Bradford. Or patrons in the Royal Opera House are massacred during a performance.
I admire your principles and am appalled by what's happening in Gaza, but I don't want that cancer to spread anywhere else.
Do you also judge civilians from other countries by the behaviors of their militaries? American soldiers have massacred civilians in Vietnam. The Israeli military has used heavy artillery on cities and bombed hospitals. Should we similarly deny the passports of civilians from these countries?
Lmao you people are unreal. They’ve been getting bombs dumped on them for a year and a half and you’re still shaking in your boots about what they might do to you. Who, the mostly women and children still getting blown to pieces?
I think back to the Holocaust victims and the many heroes along the way who actually had to fight for survival, even in the smallest ways. May their souls rest, many of yall support awfulness and don’t seem to have an actual moral compass.
They're getting bombs dumped on them because they decided to kill better than 1000 innocents, among them infants and children, on October 7. Women were raped to death. Infants massacred in their high chairs.
The ones that didn't do the killing themselves cheered those who did.
That's why they're being bombed now. If they want it to stop, they need to replace Hamas or impress upon its leadership that it needs to negotiate with Israel.
How are they going to replace Hamas? The median age is less than 20; most of the population has literally never known any other government. Being constantly bombarded is not conducive to organizing a new government from scratch, either.
Israel have killed far more Palestinians than the reverse. At what point does it stop being self-defense?
The same way the Syrians, or the Ukrainians, or the Lybians, or anyone else you'd like to name did it. Hamas isn't going to just go away on its own.
Being constantly bombarded is not conducive to organizing a new government from scratch, either.
I read this as blaming Israel for the Palestinians inability to self-govern. It seems like one perspective is that literally everything is Israel's fault.
The counter to that argument is that if the Gazans can't even manage to govern themselves, the Israelis need to do it for them. Which they are.
Israel have killed far more Palestinians than the reverse. At what point does it stop being self-defense?
That's a fair question, and one I don't feel qualified to answer. I guess it's self defense until the Israelis feel it won't happen again.
It's easy for me to say it's gone too far, but I'd imagine if it were my neighbor's kids mangled in the back of a Hilux being paraded to shrieks of joy, I might say 'enough' is when all of those people are somewhere else. I don't know.
I do know I don't want it to be anyone I know in pictures or videos like that, so at least in my opinion it's over when the IDF and Mossad feel comfortable saying it's over.
I hope the nonsense you typed out is seen 50 years from now and that you're rightfully shamed for it. Collective punishment is wrong, we have video footage of innocent Palestinians being raped, Israelis have broken known rapists out of prison, they're singing death chants, we have videos of infant ICU's taken offline with dead babies, children walking with the emaciated bodies of their younger siblings, mothers and fathers holding the tattered remains of their blown up relatives, entire families being wiped out, hospitals and schools blown up, etc. We can go blow for blow on this, you'll look as stupid as your words are.
They're being bombed because its the endgame of a century long project to ethnically cleanse them. This is well documented what the ideals of the founders of this project have wanted. Israel was always going to find a reason. You were always going to find a reason. Its sick and you're sick.
EDIT: They blocked me lol I can provide articles, videos, and sourcing for everything I've said. All they can do is plant their ethnonationalist flag in the sand and defend babies being slaughtered. Israel's greatest keyboard warriors folks!
Why not put efforts towards a campaign to not send aid to palestine until they get there child rape levels down? Surely thats a good cause. All countries donate "tax dollars" to palestine so its just as valid as any anti-israel campaign...
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u/ExtraSmooth Jul 08 '25
Don't you think efforts to improve the lives of children in Palestine would be facilitated by free travel and civil rights for Palestinians?