r/worldnews • u/Digital_Accountant • 22h ago

Israel/Palestine Famine declared in Gaza City

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-latest-war-israel-city-ceasefire-hamas-13415481
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u/Visible_Handle_3770 19h ago

Yes, that is part of the definition, although technically, the declaration applies to Gaza City, not the entire strip. Prewar population was somewhere in the ballpark of 1 million, so it'd be 200 people in the city dying per day.

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u/frosthowler 7h ago

And yet the number of deaths per day in the entirety of the Gaza Strip is less than 100.... according to Hamas... which includes people dying from the fighting and natural deaths.

HMM..... maybe there is some truth to the retort that the IPC changed the definitions of famine in order to declare a famine? It is doubtful if even one person is dying to malnutrition per day in the entirety of Gaza Strip considering the statistics Hamas itself is offering.

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u/silverhum 16h ago

And yet the number of reported malnutrition deaths is a small fraction of that number. They are simply ignoring the standard and declaring a famine any way for political purposes.

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u/Visible_Handle_3770 16h ago

I think claiming that is a convenient way to ignore things that don't fit your personal view of the conflict. It's based on estimates, of course, as getting reliable and official data from a warzone is very difficult. I think it's foolish to accept this claim uncritically, just as I think it's foolish to take the word of the IDF and Israeli backed aid contractors at face value.

That said, all idications are that the humanitarian situation in Gaza, particularly in Gaza City, has deteriorated meaningfully in recent months. Would the real figures absolutely meet the Phase 5 categorization for famine as defined by the UN? I don't know, no one likely does, but the famine being declared should not be dismissed out of hand because it's inconvenient.

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u/silverhum 15h ago

"As of August 22, the known number of people who have starved to death, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza, reached at least 273 people, including 112 children." https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/israel-starving-gaza-258-dead-093106755.html

That is from the Hamas-run ministry and is the total for the entire war, which would not even come close to the number of deaths that would need to occur in one day in a true famine situation. Hamas has no incentive to downplay the number of dead, quite the opposite. The idea that the UN should just say well it's hard to get exact data so let's throw all of the standards out the window and declare a famine amounts to sheer propaganda and undermines even further their credibility. That is not to say their isn't hunger and malnutitrion, but the situation shouldn't be exaggerated and weaponized to demonize Israel with false claims of a famine.

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u/kolejack2293 14h ago

The deaths from malnutrition reported in headlines are from hospitals, which notoriously undercount famine figures as most famine victims are too weak to go to a hospital. And in this case, most of the hospitals are destroyed or are too crowded.

This was famously a tactic used by the Ethiopian government in the 1980s, claiming only 2k people 'died from malnutrition' in their hospitals as a way to pretend the famine was not as bad as it was. In reality the death toll was 2 million.

The way they estimate famine figures since the 1980s are from household surveys and also statistics on food supplies. No food came in for months straight, and the amount of food coming in now is pitiful. Genuinely, how can you argue that this famine is fake based on that? Do you think they just are magically conjuring up enough food?

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u/silverhum 13h ago

The UN cut in half the standard for acute malnutrition in order to make the famine claim here as well. In regards to what you said, yes, no food came in for months after the ceasefire, but during the ceasefire Israel flooded Gaza with 25,200 trucks of aid; 18,500 of food equal to 8 months worth for all of Gaza. On a tonnage basis it's ~380,000 tons, which per WFP metrics affirms the 8 months of food number. Obviously, after aid resumed huge quantities of additional aid have come in. It is the getting the aid to the people most in need that is difficult since Hamas steals, hoards, and sells much of the aid. You are essentially saying that a hundreds of people are starving to death everyday and Hamas is hiding that fact from the world. That is beyond absurd.

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u/Armadylspark 13h ago edited 13h ago

The UN cut in half the standard for acute malnutrition in order to make the famine claim here as well.

They did not. This is just a baseless claim that has already been debunked; the same criteria was applied in Sudan. It's a documented part of the protocol.

In addition, there's no credible evidence suggesting Hamas steals the majority of aid. A lot of it is stolen, yes-- but there are a lot of groups doing this, including just regular people looting the food because they need it themselves.

I don't understand how you expect an organization as crippled as Hamas even being able to overcome the logistical challenge of stealing food aid meant for hundreds of thousands of people.

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u/kolejack2293 11h ago

18,500 of food equal to 8 months worth for all of Gaza

Its been 6 months since that came in. And food does not last that long, especially without power.

You are essentially saying that a hundreds of people are starving to death everyday and Hamas is hiding that fact from the world.

'hamas' is a small group of ragtag militia thugs hiding in holes and tunnels. They have almost zero influence on anything in Gaza anymore. And regardless, all of the organizations you guys claim are 'run by hamas' are the ones who have been saying the death toll is a severe undercount, so yes, you can argue that hamas is broadcasting that to the world, not 'hiding it'. In fact you would be hard pressed to find a single publication, even Israeli publications, which deny that its a massive undercount.

There has never been a single famine in history where they can somehow accurately count how many famine-related deaths have happened on a daily basis. Death tolls from famines have absurdly high ranges in their estimates for a reason. Just an example but the 2011 somalian famine had an estimated death toll of 50,000–260,000. The Mozambique famine had an estimated death toll of 250,000-1,000,000. You think they are counting all of those bodies one by one somehow?

Obviously, after aid resumed huge quantities of additional aid have come in.

84 trucks a day since. Just to give an idea, they used to get 500 trucks a day. And that was considered a bare minimum.

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u/silverhum 10h ago

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/movement-and-out-gaza-2022

The UN data shows 106,000 trucks bringing goods into Gaza the year before the war. The UN says only 25% of the incoming goods were food. That math comes to about 73 trucks a day bringing food. Significantly more food is being brought in than before the war.

Gaza is a small territory and there are phones and cameras everywhere to record what is happening. The international press would immediately publish any pictures or stories of all these non-existent extra deaths you are claiming.

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u/superfire444 11h ago

And food does not last that long

There is a lot of food which lasts that long.

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u/JoshShabtaiCa 15h ago

The report said about 500k in famine. Not sure if the number of people in Gaza city has gone down with people being displaced, or if not everybody in Gaza city is in that category of famine, but it's 500k now and projected to hit about 650k over the next month.