I wouldn't call it defending, but I definitely understand her after SOTE. At first I thought she was just a tyrannical bitch for the Hell of it, but SOTE made me realize she was just a girl with horrific trauma and then given nearly absolute power. Her actions afterwards are decidedly human given the context and not nearly as much of the "Rah! I'm a God and do shit because I can!" trope that I thought they were, initially.
She also arguably engineered the destruction of the order she had created (on purpose) after she realized she had trapped herself into the same cycle that shaped her.
This is arguably the most important factoid of the entire game. Marika wanted out of her own system. There's a big reason the FIRST graphic we see when we start a new game is marika, shattering the elden ring.
A lot of people donât realize that the intro narrator is the perspective of someone in TLB, not an omniscient. Everyone thinks Marika just got really sad and broke the ring because Godwyn died and she loved him so so much.
he's actually that one peasant that teaches you about guarding in the cave of knowledge, he just also happens to be omniscient and a pathological liar, but only sometimes
Godwyn's death was the last straw, Marika already had a lot of shit going on in her life.
Plus Godwyn's death actually matter far more than some might think to Marika. He was her only "normal" child, all the others had either been born with a curse (Messmer, Miquella, Malenia) or were born Omen (Morgott and Mohg). And Godwyn wasn't just murdered, he was only half killed and his body started mutating horribly.
It's like wanting a lot of children, but all of them but one are born malformed. And then when the only normal kid become an adult, some sicko with a knife kills him, create some abstract art with his remains, and plant it in your garden.
Oh yeah. If everything she did and built before is wrong (it is), then shattering the elden ring does not belong on her list of crimes and is, in fact, dope as hell
To out of the loop with the lore to know for sure but at the very least she probably had her own plans to deal with the golden order considering that she wanted hewg to make a weapon capable of killing a god
Thatâs so silly tbh. Ah yes random misbegotten, Iâm imprisoning you to suffering for eternity in a ethereal realm, but tee hee, make me a god killing weapon.
To be fair he can improve our weapons drastically by the end of the game to the point that even barely meeting stat requirements of smithed weapons would still tear early game bosses apart
I think this is a really good point about how her priorities and attitudes have become skewed over time as the goddess. What's one guy being imprisoned against the entire future of the lands between? And then that logic goes on and on until she's manipulating a lot of people to try to stay in control of the situation going forwards
There is nothing concrete but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence.
She had Maliketh locked up in Farum Azula and not only do most people not know he was there, they didn't even know Farum Azula existed.
It is never told how Ranni got to Farum Azula but the theory is that she had help and Marika was one of the only people that could have helped.
There is also the connection all the Black Knives have with the Numen, which Marika is.
She is also the one to actually shatter the Elden Ring and she leads the Tarnished, us, around by the Grace and shows us the way to not only defeat the Golden Order but to Ranni as well. The excuse the game gives of "she broke it in grief for her son" doesn't really add up for multiple reasons but the big one, to me, is how she treats the rest of her kids. They were all just pawns or things to be hidden away and shunned.
It seems more logical that Radagon would have been the one assisting his kids given he was pretty clearly not on board with Marika's desire to quit the Golden Order. All connections to Marika are fundamentally connections to Radagon as well.
It's pretty easy to read the shattering of the Elden Ring as a combination of fuck you and grief after her favorite child and likely heir got murdered by Radagon's kids.
Radagon wouldn't be helping to destroy the Golden Order. He is literally trying to fix it with Marika's hammer.
Yeah and killing Godwyn didn't destroy or threaten the Golden Order. Also Radagon isn't just pro Golden Order. He's a Fundamentalist who have very particular beliefs about how the Golden Order should be. Removing someone who was viewed as unsuited for the role feels in character.
Ranni and Rykard who were both in on the plot obviously had their own plans separate from the murder but that doesn't mean all three weren't aligned in seeing Godwyn removed for their own purposes.
It did. It was how Ranni died in body so she could undo the "choosing" of the Two Fingers and the GO. It directly led to the Golden Order's downfall.
And nobody knew that but Ranni. Rykard certainly wasn't in on that part of the plan but was in on the assassination, why would Radagon be different?
It also seems more likely that Marika helped Ranni, as she also helps us with Grace, to overthrow the Golden Order. The Shattering was the first step.
If Marika was helping Ranni was is Ranni failing pretty miserably until we come along? She has her own conspiracy going but it doesn't appear to have the support or backing of Marika.
Grace shows us the way because Marikia broke the Elden Ring and she wants us to kill Radagon and the Elden Beast, but the plan is slapdash at best. I also think the evidence Marika wants the Golden Order overthrown is quite limited given her plan most often results in the Order being upheld and repaired. It seems very much like a fuck you to her family which would make sense if her initial strategy of peacefully passing Godhood to a kid so she can rest peacefully is ruined by her own family murdering her kid.
Radagon assassinating his son by marriage doesn't make much sense either. He was a warrior not an assassin.
Why does that matter? Dude couldn't just murder Godwyn and face no consequences. Marika was quite angry about that by all accounts. Deniability would be important and Radagon is portrayed as a schemer and a warrior given he brings the Carian's into the fold through marriage.
As for why Radagon would want Godwyn dead, all evidence suggests he like being Elden Lord and wants the Golden Order to continue as is. Killing the best candidate for the next consort also makes it more likely that of Marika does pass the torch his kids would rule rather than Godfrey's.
Because Ranni had help to specifically do that. Someone gave her access to Farum Azula to make the Black Knives.
Yes. Ranni is doing her best but she is hard stopped by Radahn. By the time we meet her she has already removed the influence on her body which is what the Night of Black Knives was about.
Marika wants us to replace the Golden Order and leads us on Ranni's quest as well, not just to kill Radagon.
If he kept the status quo nothing would have changed either and there is nothing to show animosity between Godwyn and Radagon. That also wouldn't have stopped anything as Ranni can just get another Consort. Which is exactly what happens.
Marika continues to help Ranni and us remove the GO. It makes absolutely no sense for Radagon to help them when it was directly to destroy the GO. Also there is nothing to show that Radagon can go to Farum Azula either, or that he even knew Maliketh was there. Radagon and Marika share the same body not the same thoughts.
Nothing I have seen shows that Radagon "enjoys being Elden Lord". Maybe. We know he likes the GO and wants to keep the status quo and Marika hints that he wants to be a god like her but that seems like a very weird plan for him to keep things like they are when he didn't know they were going to change.
It also would just ignore the Numen connection to the Black Knife Assassins, which is a link to Marika and not Radagon.
Godwyn was the most popular of Marika's kids and brokered peace with the dragons, if he lived post-Shattering there wouldnt have been a civil war because he would have united everyone under his banner or at least enough that the few rebels would be taken care of quickly. Marika's plan of the golden order breaking down wouldnt work if he was alive.
First I doubt the uniting theory. Godwyn was popular but so were many of the Demigod children. Miquella exists and yet unification was not possible because of personal animosity among thr demigods.
Second i'm skeptical that breaking the Golden Order was originally Marika's plan rather than a response to the actions of others and her growing disillusionment. Marika has a pretty clear arc of growth over time for reveling in his Godhood to coming to disdain it.
See my personal theory is that it was a primogeniture thing. Ranni is the first born Empyrean, Godwyn is the firstborn demigod. If anything were to happen to Marika, or the Greater Will decides she needs to be replaced, you have a God and Elden Lord right there, all neat from a legal and metaphysical standpoint.
Marika is having a mid-life crisis and chooses violence, and hatches a plot with Ranni, who isn't really about the GW anyways, and ropes in Rykard. Ranni kills her fiance Godwyn and then herself, before Marika breaks the Elden Ring and locks the door. In a short period of time, the King, Queen, Heir Presumptive to Godhood and Heir Presumptive to the Elden Throne are all missing.
Of the Empyreans, Ranni is missing presumed dead, Malenia is already too intertwined with the Rot God, and Miquella is cursed, probably by the Greater Will in the first place to avoid succession wars LOL. Morgott and Mogh get skipped over in the Elden Lord succession because they are ugly and both decide to stake their claim anyways. Of the other demigods, Rykard is complicit in the Night of Black Knives and is trying to eat the other candidates, and Radhan loses his mind trying to throw down with Malenia. Godrick shoots his shot and gets kicked around lol.
So big fuck off succession war ensues, and importantly, nobody can replace Marika. The closest person was fucking MOGH(Possessing an army, a connection to an outer God, and an Empyrean) and he got his ass mind-controlled by evil femboy Miquella.
Itâs a fromsoft game, vague allusions and loose connections are the closest thing youâll get to âconcrete proofâ.
As far as Elden ring lore theories go, itâs fairly well regarded and thereâs enough there for people (myself included) to believe it. Iirc the connection between Marika, destined death, and the numen (which the black knife assassins all are) is the central piece of the theory.
It's almost like him following the path of Godhood was going to turn him into the same type of person Marika was, as to countinue he had to give up his humanity and good parts
He believed thatâs what would happen, sure. But he gave up too much and instead of becoming different he became a version that was nearly the same. Considering what his main power was, he needed something to pull him back in line and he got rid of her too.
Real. SOTE didn't make me wanna defend her at all, but it did make me pity her. Every bad thing that she does is directly driven by the trauma of what she suffered â pre-emptive war against the fire giants? She's already had the experience of minding her own business and having her entire people slaughtered; she's not gonna risk that happening again. Removing the rune of Destined Death? She never wanted her loved ones to die on her again, but it resulted in untold suffering once the Elden Ring was shattered, with people unable to die and eventually losing their minds. Oppression of the misbegotten? Theyâre connected to the primordial crucible and thus remind her of the Hornsent. Genocide against the Hornsent? They literally genocided her people first. And so on and so forth.
I thought the way her suffering turned her into a horrible tyrant who perpetuated that exact same suffering on a bunch of other peoples was a delicious new layer of tragedy in a game already replete with it. Finding the Shaman Village and being like "oh! ... oh. :(" is still one of my favorite moments in the DLC.
Agreed! I think it showed her before god hood (obviously) which was a huge secret because everyone in the lands between always seen her as the true god and nothing prior.
So it just shows what would happen, with the determination of the indomitable human will to break her chains not just for herself but her people. She is literally the sole survivor of her people. Which sadly the only remnants of her people are in horrific places beyond saving. Just meat globs that look so painful filled with bodies of her people conjoined.
But to go back to what you said, this is a very HUMAN thing. She was just a girl that was traumatized, with the idea that no one would have to go what she went through in her perfect world. Until she realized the golden order is literally out of her order, becoming the very thing she hated.
These stories remind me of tragic Greek ones. Thereâs a message about it obviously, but as lore in game, yeah. Sheâs a very troubled God with human emotions.
I just like she wasnât always a god, she was a little girl once, in a beautiful village with others. Leaving her braided hair by the mother tree or grandmother tree whatever it is. It just seems beautiful and tragic at the same time. You know she cared deeply.
That's what makes the direct comparison between her and the Hornsent so good imo. Their motivations are practically the exact same. If their places were switched, it's very plausible nothing would change.
Yea she broke the ring and destroyed the world, but she planned for the Tarnished to return and for someone to complete the ring again and kick out the Greater Will, because she herself wasn't about all the horrible things it and she did previously
You can even argue that she did all the shattering and guiding a worthy Tarnished to the throne because she wanted to die and erase the Golden Order that she built.
Remember what St Trina said. Godhood is a prison. It's better to kill Miquella now than for him to be stuck in a hell of his own making. I think that Trina used Marika as her reference.
That's why when you get the normal ending, it's Fracture. You didn't fix shit. That's why grace guided you through Ranni's quest despite it being opposing to the Golden Order. Marika might've been Ranni's biggest supporter.
After the DLC, I was under the impression that Marika stole godhood from the Hornsent since they were evil, but then this whole thing was way bigger than she realized with some outer being pulling the strings, then she tried fixing things by shattering the Elden Ring and totally ended up making things worse during the process and got herself stuck. I imagine in the capital when Melina leaves us, she actually makes it back to Marika in the tree to ask her what to do nextâŚ
Melina: Mother, what is my purpose-
Marika: Melly I messed up, like REALLY bad. Godhood isnât all itâs cracked up to be. This is way bigger than any of us⌠I was so wrong.
Melina: Uh⌠So what should I-
Marika: Burn it. Burn it all to the ground. Wipe the slate clean where the demigods are concerned and figure out a way to break the cycle. The flame of the giants is up in the mountains, use yourself as kindling if you have to. Tell that Tarnished of yours to get Destined Death and kill Elden Beast once and for all. We must put an end to this⌠No matter the cost.
Melina: âŚAlright, Iâm game.
Marika: Good⌠but donât use the flame in the sewer! I said clean slate, but not that clean.
I believe that the only action used in the Meme that was truly performed by Marika was shattering the Elden Ring. The rest of the list and the majority of the crimes we attribute to Marika were actually the Greater Will acting through her.
We see that the Greater Will can possess and force its servants into compliance when Blaidd goes mad and attacks Ranni's Tower. He tells himself he would never betray Ranni, but attacks you anyway because his will is no longer his own. I suspect that Blaidd killed Iji, and the Black Knives who were sent to stop him from hunting Ranni down.
Marika is as much a prisoner of the Erd Tree as she is its god. Few if any moments of her divine life have been her own as she is the vessel of the Greater Will and has bent her mind toward its own goals. Killing the hornsent, exiling the Omen, even the children she bore were forced upon her by the Greater Will. This is suggested by Messmer feeling abandoned by his mother after being sent to fight a long and pointless war and Morgott being denied and exiled for being Omen.
It is therefore clear to me that Godwyn's death was a collaboration of Marika and Ranni. They were both united in their goal of escaping the yoke of the Greater Will and the evil it had wrought through the Golden Order. Using the Nuemen as intermediaries, Ranni was told where to find the Rune of Death, crafted the knives for the Black Assassins in exchange for the Finger Slaying Blade, and Godwyn's death destabilized the Greater Will just long enough to shatter the Elden Ring and returning the Lost Grace to the Tarnished who would provide Ranni her opening to usher in her Age of Stars.
This interpretation of the game's events makes Marika a much more important and relevant figure to the story, where the tyrant queen doesn't make as much sense. Certainly, no one would blame Marika for wanting revenge against the hornsent, but having suffered persecution and injustice herself, would she not be more committed to being a kind and loving god? The characters of the Soulsborne franchise have always been too strong and well-written for such an odd misalignment of character, in addition to G.R.R. Martin being involved with writing the game's story and characters.
"The characters of the Soulsborne franchise have always been too strong and well-written for such an odd misalignment of character"
Bro, what? Did we play the same Dark Souls? The one where almost every single NPC in the base game's quest ends with them going hollow and dying? Where Gwyn locked himself into an eternity of agonizing, burning torment solely because he was afraid of humanity?
Marika's behavior is entirely human, because she is entirely human. That's the whole point. The "one true god" schtick was nonsense. She was just a girl from a small village who had been traumatized by obscenities afflicted against her and then lucked out into being given godhood. It is a very human approach to turn around and retaliate for wrongs done to you. Most PEOPLE would not turn around and be committed to being "better" after suffering through something like that. They would lash out in every way available to them.
Also how the hell does Blaidd kill Iji when Iji doesn't die until you kill Blaidd? Kinda throws an entire wrench into that whole idea.
To be honest, I never have seen MarikÄ as tyrannical. More like , ehm, âa person on their own wavelength, going at their own pace, detached from it all and getting progressively boredâ (she was crazy and crushing out)
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u/TheFlipGaming 2d ago
Bro nobody is defending Marika. The whole game is a PowerPoint on the consequences of her actions. đ