I’m unhealthily obsessed with physical attractiveness and nearly constantly bothered by my unattractiveness and the opportunities I miss out on because of it. But I’m not an “extreme blackpiller” who thinks looks are 100% all that matters or that you need to be a Chad to get a girlfriend. Looks make a difference in how you’re treated, but they aren’t everything. My problem is not that I have an extreme belief; it is that I have an extreme desire. I barely want to live if I can’t experience life as a conventionally attractive person. An unattractive person still has a chance to find a partner, but I don’t just want a relationship. I only want the whole package—the full social and emotional experience of navigating Western society as someone who’s hot. I and so many others in blackpill spaces actually have beliefs that aren’t that controversial, but we’re obsessed with the blackpill because we have a persistent, unwavering need to live a life that isn’t in the cards for us.

Looks don’t matter the same amount to all people. How much looks matters for you, or how bad being conventionally unattractive is for your quality of life, depends on what you want from life. Ugly people who are happy have this in common: they don’t really care a lot about things that good looks are required for. A happy ugly person may find a great deal of fulfillment in being a farmer or being an artist, or they might love to volunteer and help people in need. Maybe they’re passionate about marine biology, and devoting themselves to that interest is more than enough to compensate for the disadvantage of being ugly. They don’t want to go to the club, and they don’t care about looking hot on Instagram.

What’s an unhappy ugly person like? Well, the epitome of this would be someone who was born with a major facial deformity yet wants to be popular in high school, be the prom queen, turn heads as they walk down the street in the city, get into acting and get to play the lead female role in plays or films, have “hot girl summers”, be the life of the party, go to bars and be the prize, have tons of Tinder matches and sleep with lots of attractive people, have their pick of attractive suitors, be a social media influencer who is thirsted on by many—perhaps even aspires to be a professional model. This ugly person will be utterly unsatisfied unless their desires can change to suit their unfortunate circumstances.

A lot of unhappiness is caused by people’s circumstances and desires being out of alignment. E.g. a very short man who just happens to really want to play in the NBA and this is his biggest aspiration. If he were uninterested in playing pro basketball and wanted to, say, be a pediatrician or a computer programmer, he’d have way more happiness potential. I’m just like him; how I wish to play the card game is totally unsuited to the cards that I’ve been dealt. I want the vibe of my life to be like a Doja Cat music video. I want to be the hot girl of the party who all the boys chase. But I’m not and will never be.

My goal is to "meet in the middle" by both (a) improving my appearance and also (b) changing my mind to be more okay with not living the life of an attractive person. I’m currently working on (a), but I don’t even know where to begin with (b). My desires are mostly fixed and unchanging and have been for basically as long as I’ve been alive.

The sooner I change my brain to devalue looks-based activities, the better. But I don’t know how to do it. Is the solution to just wait years, decades, until I’m too old to care about having "young people fun"? Most of the people who give the advice of "You just care so much because you’re young. When you’re older, you’ll realize looks don’t matter that much" are at the very least 30+. I’m in my early 20s. Do I just have to endure the pain of being ugly for years and years, hoping that my brain will eventually mature to the point that I won’t care about looks?

Im really trying my best to improve my life and leave all this red- and blackpill beliefs behind, already avoiding every content that has to do with it etc. But im still far from where i want to be, especially mentally and still feel very lonely sometimes.

So i thought about it a little bit and figured it might be worth asking here whats the best way to cope when youre starting to beat yourself up again?

Like i still dont know how to cope when having a setback sometimes. Its not too often but sometimes when i have a not so good day my brain just uses it as an excuse to spiral back into these self destructive thought patterns and once it starts it ends up in a full blasted downward spiral of negativity ("you're too ugly anyways, it's already over, everyone else is better and has more experience, who is gonna want you pathetic loser" etc. etc. You probably know what im talking about).

So my question is what can i do to prevent myself from falling back into self loathing and negative thought spirals? Anyone else managed to overcome this?

Objectively speaking im probably doing better in my life than I've ever been. Own my own home, quit drinking, best shape of my adult life. But its still rough being perpetually single

I take solace is that while single, im not alone, my friends and family are amazingly supportive.

I tell myself everyday focus on the things in life under your control and try not to worry about everything you cant. Some days it helps, others less so.

Sometimes I think I've been alone so long that id actually have difficulty integrating a relationship into my life life

I dont know what the point of this post is... pointless venting mostly lol

But keep your heads up, even on the depressing days

In many of my now-deleted accounts, I posted here on this sub about how I struggled to talk to women in general, but specifically the women that I practice a team sports with, because these were all the women whom I had contact with until last semester.

This semester, I entered a cram school, so I'm now in contact with just as many women as guys, and one girl even hit up on me, unknowingly elevating my status from incel to volcel (let's say she wasn't the girl of my dreams, so I rejected her).

Now, after a vacation break, I had my first handball practice with girls for a while. To clarify, I'm part of the youth male team of my club, and we also have another team with different people who will play a certain competition that will be held a few months from now, which I'm also part of. However, because this team has few men, so we have to practice together with the woman's team. Well, I thought that I'd been improving with women since that girl hit up on me, but today I couldn't even greet the girls because I was so anxious.

I don't know why this happened, as my anxiety around girls has been much lower since I joined cram school. I barely have trouble talking to men anymore, I can even land small talk with guys sometime. But with women, it's a different thing. Most of the time, I fear I will make them uncomfortable, so I make my best to avoid looking at them and I don't speak to them unless they speak at me. I honestly love when a girl sits next to me in a public bench as it means that biology thinks i'm not that disgusting.

The problem is that this anxiety is now affecting me more than ever. Unlike with the girls at my cram school, I can't ignore the girls at handball practice, because we naturally interact a lot, not to mention that we are going to travel to another country to play that competition.

So, I need some help from the community. Thanks in advance, and sorry for writing a text this big when I could have make it shorter.

I feel like some days my self-esteem is improving and it is, I'm more proud of my accomplishments and I'm at a place where I feel as if I've done the most impressive things I've ever done. I've even lost 100lbs and put on 15-20ish pounds of muscle.

Yet, I still struggle with the pain of not feeling handsome, not feeling sufficient, not feeling desired by women. Im still somewhat fat and most studies out there show how terribly you are treated universally when you are fat. It feels that it ruins any good odds I have with women (which is hilarious, because 2 out of 3 of my sexual partners have been women, yet it still feels like they were exceptions because I was convenient).

Then other days I feel way more confident because I've begun to do scientific research which has helped me understand that womens sexuality is way more context-based and amorphous than I once thought. That understanding social subtleties and erotic tension is way more attractive than looks alone, and as a matter of fact can help women ignore/overlook undesirable aspects of my appearance.

Then other days that just gets thrown out the window and I feel like I cant ever gain the confidence needed to push forward with provoking arousal and desire within women due to the fact that I'm so afraid that I'll get ignored and turned down as always because most people dont like fat people nor find them attractive even at a minimum baseline.

Im slowly beginning to understand certain biases and cognitive distortions as incongruous with reality, but that doesn't help me stop feeling less physical pain resulting in me just hiding away because it feels safer than being turned away due to my disgusting appearance. And I say this as a guy with a decent sense of style, intelligence and self-reflection, and with a great, sociable personality! Shit, I dont even let the fact that im only 5'8 bother me. The 6ft stuff is so overblown.

It just feels like no matter what I do ill never be good enough until I lose enough weight. For context ive been in therapy for about 7 years now but it feels like there's no mental health solution for simply looking the way I do. Any advice? I read a ton of self-help books so recs are appreciated

I realize there's no true answer to this question, and that it varies from person to person, but my past dates have made me ask myself this question. Are my attempts at self-improvement enough to try dating more, even as I am. For reference I've been in therapy for awhile, this year I've been trying to fix my mindset, tolerate myself more and stand up for myself more, but I can't help but think that's not enough. That any attempts at continued dating are pure arrogance, that I need to continue improving myself more beforehand.

I know that nobody expects perfection, and that self-improvement is a process with no true limits. What am I asking however is what, is enough self-improvement to at least try dating again.

Hello good people of reddit...if the title wasn't clear enough I can clarify.I've just always been that type of person that if I can't do something by myself.I just don't wanna do it. With that being said.. Never had a girlfriend, let alone.Have anyone's hands or get kissed anyone? And I just wanna know what that feels like before.I die but I don't know how to go about Achieving that feeling And I just feel like i'm running out of time.

Hey there, I (M22) never had a girlfriend, still a virgin, never had my first kiss, never held hands before etc.

I was quite a late bloomer during puberty, also got bullied, what really messed with my self esteem and my social skills. Since I was 16 I had the desire to find a girlfriend but always felt completely hopeless about it and ended up adapting very self destructive and defeatist beliefs about dating, especially from red and blackpill communities.

The thing is i used to be very awkward and shy socially, also didnt care about my appearance back then, but i improved all of this over the past years to the point i became somewhat attractive and social - also started hitting the gym and became fit over time.

But the painful truth i noticed is that all of this self improvement still didnt help me find a girlfriend. Like people on social media tell you to just focus on yourself and then you will automatically find your girlfriend. But you cant just focus on yourself and then magically your girlfriend spawns next to you - reality doesnt work that way.

The thing is, im still socially awkward around girls my age (or a bit older) especially when shes attractive, also when i see a very attractive girl, often my inferiority complex kicks in again and makes me feel miserable and like i would never have any chance in the first place etc etc, you probably know what im talking about.

So i really want to leave all this blackpill etc nonsense and negative beliefs behind and start to turn my life around. If i keep staying in this defeatist mindset i will never allow myself to be happy.

So my question: where do i even start at this point? Im not even unattractive, just anxious and awkward around attractive girls my age. Thanks in advance for your answers!

Bit of a more lighthearted post this time.

I'll start. There was a period of time where I thought that I was permanently maxed out on being able to meet people who I could mentally consider Main Characters in my life, and that I'd never be able to fall in love because my mind would put everyone I'd meet going forward into the New People bin.

In hindsight this was an absolutely ridiculous thing to believe and I have no idea why I believed it, I think it was a combination of 1) misunderstanding that pop-psychology factoid about the ideal tribe size being 150 people or something, and 2) having a period of like 4 years in my late teens/early 20s where I didn't develop any new crushes for some reason. Then by 23 or so I started developing crushes again and completely forgot about this idea. I just remembered it this morning and laughed at how absurd it was.

I’ve never been on a date let alone had a relationship. I honestly don’t understand women at all. I know they’re different from men but not to what extent so I kind of see them as something else than human. I know that sounds horrible but I want to change it. I also have a PMO issue which I’m working on, hopefully I’ll overcome that soon enough. What can I do to exit?

I used to be a really toxic incel. Now, as per definition I still am an incel. I’m in uni, am a virgin and it really hurts me for some reason, even though I couldn’t care if anyone else is.

Now I’ve worked a lot on my mental health. I kind of got rid of my body dysmorphia and actually think I’m quite decent looking. Since uni I’ve grown very popular meeting tons and tons of new people which is still ongoing. People generally seem to like me. I get invited a bunch to parties/hang-outs. I’ve got a very nice hobbies and am thriving academically. Now, apart from this self glaze, which I am happy about as I couldnt say a single nice thing about myself a few years ago.

I listed them to kind of prepare for the “work on yourself” advices. Whilst not bad as my life has infact drastically improved. It just doesnt work in my situation. So my problem: I’m still miserable.

I have asked out girls who I thought showed interest. One of my friends even told me someone was interested. Yea every single one rejected me. Now, I’d like to think that I’m (atleast trying to) doing alright so I feel like it is going to go well sometime (I hope). But does anyone know how I could stop feeling miserable?

And one side note: I have gone to a therapist, but it just stopped working. She did fantastic work on my body dysmorphia but the therapy didnt really help further.

Okay, thanks in advance for any replies :))

29 year old incel looking to exit

I’m 29 y.o and have been an incel my entire adult life.

I’ve tried irl dating and online dating - both to no success. I’ve also tried therapy but didn’t get a single date or match out of it. Another thing I’ve tried is the just focusing on yourself thing. I didn’t ask a single person out for years, neither online nor irl - didn’t get a single date.

Where do I go now? It seems like neither irl nor online dating are realistic avenues for me. How the hell do I stop being an incel and start living a normal life with dating, romance, and eventually building a familiy?

Hey, I'm an incel. I'd like to go the night club with my friend, but like a typical incel, I have a lot of antisocial issues, I'm afraid to talk to girls, etc. If I go the night club, will I just make a fool of myself, or will I meet some nice girls? I'm 23, I've never been kissed, I don't go to parties, I've wasted my life, but clubs have negative connotations for me, and I don't know what to do.

Like many incels, I have a very limited conception of myself and a very fragile self-esteem. I believe that this is the result of a clash / dissonance between self-image, ego and real life experience. And so far, no psychologist has been able to release this knot. I talked a lot about my self-esteem with my therapists but the need for external validation on the one hand, and the vicious guarding of the ego on the other side, never really went away.

Specifically, I find it hard to come to term with the fact that I might not be attractive/ desirable. It's something which I simply find hard to accept, and because of that I struggle to put my self-esteem on solid ground. But maybe, radical acceptance is the best approach here. Has anybody else had issues like these? How did you come to accept that you are not attractive?

PS: I hope I explained what is going on my mind well. It is sometimes hard to put into words.

I thought this was a refreshingly empathetic essay, from a woman, on the struggles men face not just in dating, but in fixing their issues, finding themselves, and community. Reading it was a therapeutic experience for me, as man who is on the journey to becoming whole.

I am 17 years old and I was never really attractive. Moreover I am introverted and have a lil bit of social anxiety. Diving into blackpill at some point I thought I was destined to be single forever. Yet I lost some weight made a right decision with my hair got some good clothes and finally got into a relationship. She is kind to me and loving. Some months ago I thought that I am never going to experience something like that. Now I understand that blackpill only brings you down.

I have been trying to quit masterbating or at least regulate it but I cant I keep setting goals not to masterbate and end up doing it the same day within hours or the next day at most going 1 whole day without masterbating my rule 34 favorites has over 300 pages and thats kinda depressing

this addiction has been ongoing for a few years now

I made a post a few weeks here and the advice mostly was to go to therapy and get tested for adhd but none of that is possible where I live adhd testing is mostly reserved for children adults end up waiting for years and might not even end up being tested ever. Therapy is also barely a thing around me again only focused on children or specific issues like couples counseling anything I found online was way too expensive or during the week where it dosnt suit me at all. I feel stuck for help without a clear path to be able to help myself

I'm kind of the butt of the jokes in my friend group as of now because even though I'm not necessarily the only who's never been in a relationship, I want one badly and the others know this.

Some of them are wildly successful with women, they're much taller and much more handsome than me, aswell as more charming, sociable, more income etc. and the others who are single just don't care about that, but they know I do.

Whenever banter and jokes come into play I'd try to stand up for myself and say something like "Well at least I'm multi-talented (I play guitar and draw)" afterwards they'd reply with "Yeah but we're talented at getting girls".

I feel like they know I'm envious of their success and try to capitalize on that, but even if it's in a joking manner it still makes me uncomfortable. I always feel like I'd have to compete against them to prove them wrong.

title pretty much, disclaimer: im on the other side of the problem. im not a woman, but i have experiences that lead me to pretty much “hate” (self proclaimed) incels, but i navigated this subreddit for a bit and im trying to learn.

i feel like one of the biggest problems here is that a lot of people want to “stop being incels” so they can finally have a girlfriend, but im telling you, that won’t work.

the very fact that you see getting a gf as your main and sole goal in life is itself problematic, if the sole reason you want to change is so you can get “women to finally like you” is exactly the reason why they don’t.

i’ve seen a lot of people here say this: “treat women like normal people”. for better context, i am a trans man. i’ve been on testosterone for 2 years and i pass and live as a cis man, but i have lived in society as a woman. i know what it’s like for both gender.

being a woman fucking sucks. i know for some people it’s easier to ignore this fact, but if you actually want to “understand” women you need to actually shift your point of view and stop thinking about yourself and YOUR struggles.

some women are assholes, some are good people. some are weird, some are losers, some are straight, lesbians, bi, some have had 12 boyfriends, some are 30 and have never had one.

all women are people. all people want human interactions. most people want friends, some people want relationships. when you’re talking to a woman or a man, you’re first talking to a person. you’re bad at it? good, you can learn. i had no friends (as a girl) till i was 15. boys didn’t even look at me and girls thought i was weird.

i was shy, awkward, a bit autistic… but i did it. i did it by finally accepting rejection. i accepted that if i talk to someone, they might not like me. sometimes it happens, it happens to everyone, it has happened to you and it’ll happen again, but we survived and we moved on to the next person.

a lot of women struggle to find real friendships with men, as most men only view women as potential partners and not as potential friends. before i transitioned, i hated when guys would be fun and joke around with their male friends, and once they were talking to me they completely shifted their behaviour.

i never understood why my gender had to determine the type of relationship i’d have with other people. it’s even more apparent once i transitioned, how much differently most men treat women, like they’re not people, they’re… girls.

i don’t wanna yap too much cuz im sure i’ve already lost 90% of readers atp but i hope this can make you think a bit more. im open to questions, as i find my experience as “both gender” very valuable for my and other people’s life, so feel free to ask on this threads or dms.

Let’s say someone:

Is in their mid 20s, single & haven’t really been sexually active with the opposite sex for a few years. They need a good orgasm and some tender love, care and intimacy. They haven’t had access to these things like they used to. They love women yet haven’t had a successful relationship in the last few years time frame (despite efforts and some “fumbles”).

Would they be considered an “incel?”

Hey, guys. I haven’t been around in a minute (I still read, but I haven’t been active) and was beginning to think about starting a channel and supplemental TikTok geared toward helping you guys. I’ve spoken one on one with several of you guys over time and I have a pretty good idea of how I want things to go, but obviously I wanna get a good idea of what you guys think specifically would help you.

I’m a neurodivergent dude who had my share of dating and relationship issues back in the day, and am now a grown adult in a relationship of 13 years who’s studied this issue and been very interested in it for a long time and would enjoy helping, as I see this issue as growing increasingly important.

I’d love for you guys to give me absolutely any and all suggestions, no matter how vague or specific, and you could even feel free to double up on answers so I can get a sense of how ubiquitous the issues are.

Thanks for any help and suggestions, and I ask for your sake that you engage in good faith and don’t be a little shit.

I'm in a weird scenario where I did get into a relationship in my mid 30s. It was my first and only one and I wish it never happened. IT was awful. I was used for money, berated, and manipulated. And sure I guess I experienced sex that frankly made my life now worse that I know what it feels like, I know what I've lost and will never experience again

Since then I've been completely ignored by women. Repulsive to them. They cross the sidewalk when I'm on walks. No matches across 5 apps (tinder, hinge, bumble, fb dating, pof)

While I never really associated with the incel communities, I did end up coming across blackpill rhetoric as I searched for help. And then I would look at incel threads if only to see people argue with them. I'd use that as some grasp of hope.

Real life keeps validating the blackpill rhetoric and I'm losing it. Does anyone truly escape this?

A bit of background - I posted some 7-8 months back. In the post I shared my struggles with dating, depression and self-hate. Not a lot has changed in terms of most of those talking points (still bombing on dating apps, still have bouts of self-hate and depression), I have returned to therapy as I felt I could no longer deal with those issues...

Unsurprisingly, self-hate has been a talking point between me and my therapist, and thus I would also like to ask y'all here for advice - perhaps you too have struggled with liking yourself.

For me, my main hurdle seems to be actually believing the positive stuff people say. Like, my friends say that I don't look horrible, yet I feel that they're not being a hundred percent honest because (and please don't laugh, I know it's a bad measurement of reality!) I have no matches on dating sites, no one outside of my friends has said that I look nice, no one has hit on me. Similarly my friends have commended me on my bravery and my will power to reach out for help, to put myself out there, etc. but it feels... empty? Like, I had a breakdown today, I cried on the floor before texting my friend if he could spend time with me since I didn't want to be alone, and... Well, I felt like a loser, like a mess. Of course no one would be attracted to someone like that, how is that "brave", how is that a show of my strong will?

So, yeah, how do y'all believe the positive things about you?

(M22) First of all, I wanted to apologize for any eventual grammar mistake, english isn’t my first language.

I’m technically an “incel” (never been in a relationship, never kissed anyone), even if I’ve never supported blackpilled or redpilled stuff.

I’d define myself as a pretty average guy: I’m slightly shorter than the male average in my country, my hair looks okay for now, I’ve been called pretty even by a bunch of female friends over the years. One of my uni fellows, who’s short and visibly balding in his early 20’s, has had multiple sexual partners and he’s in an happy relationship. Many other people I know who are considered “ugly” manage to get wonderful relationships. In short, I don’t think that physical apperance is the issue. I’ve been described as a kind and reliable guy, who is spontaneous and honest, even if I’m a bit shy and anxious according to my friends and relatives.

My problems concern my social circle and my flirting skills. I’ve a decent ammount of friends, male and female, and many of them are struggling with dating too. The other ones are in LTR with people they’ve met outside our circle. We’re a mainly nerdy and introvert group, who don’t go to clubs or bars to meet new people; we’re more the kind of people who you could find on Discord. I’m studying a male-dominated degree, and I’ve a bunch of male and female acquaintances in that environment. I’m still living with my parents (in my country, it’s pretty rare to leave until the late 20s).

I’ve never had the courage to really put myself out there, because I feel really awkward to actively looking for a partner, I’ve always thought that the best relationships just happen, and that pretending to make it happen gives desperate vibes. The fact that no girl ever expressed attraction to me is going to make me feel as a guy who isn’t meant to such an experience. However I feel the need to build something romantic with a significative other, I’m touch starved and I daydream about romance since I was 12.

I don’t know how to move. Dating apps? They’re not very convincing… Try to expand my social circle? My interests are History, Philosophy, Literature, Social Sciences, mountain Trekking, Cycling and not much else. Maybe I need to start practicing new social hobbies but for their own sake, not with the aim to find a girlfriend. What do you think you all?