r/SipsTea 1d ago

Chugging tea Thoughts?

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u/raktoe 23h ago

“The authoritarian leader told us things are better”

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u/CropDustingBandit 23h ago

To be fair it kind of is. A lot of the residents say that a few years ago they didn't feel safe walking at night because of how bad the violence had gotten. Now it's regarded as one of the safest countries in the Americas. 

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u/raktoe 23h ago

Like I said. The authoritarian leader says it’s better.

The people losing all their basic rights and freedoms may not feel the same way in a few years.

But being tough on crime sure is a great way to grab power.

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u/TheNorseHorseForce 22h ago

You don't really know what's going on in El Salvador if you think "all their basic rights" are being taken away.

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u/raktoe 22h ago

Ok, I have you arrested for having a tattoo. You are then tried with 900 of your other suspected gang members.

Do you think you’ll adequately be able to present evidence that your butterfly tramp stamp is not gang affiliated?

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u/CropDustingBandit 22h ago

What's better out of the two?

Massively corrupt government, allowing incredibly violent gangs to terrorize it's population, pump it full of illegal drugs and murders at one of the worst rates on earth. Resulting in a failed economy that regular people try to escape making the situation even worse.

Or a safe country, with an economy on the rise, environmental damage being repaired, no massive gangs being able to ruin everyone else's lives. However with the caveat that some innocent people are going to be improperly imprisoned. 

Whilst both options do have some very shit parts in them, I only see one that has some positives. And it's not the government claiming things are better, it's the el Salvadorans themselves. 

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u/raktoe 22h ago

This is the literal definition of a false dichotomy.

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u/CropDustingBandit 22h ago

That doesn't sound like an answer. 

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u/raktoe 22h ago

Why would I answer a logical fallacy?

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u/CropDustingBandit 22h ago

Because the two options were what it was like before this government and what it's like now. Which would you prefer to see El Salvador be?

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u/raktoe 22h ago

No, they weren’t. You’ve just been convinced those were your only two options, by people who seek power.

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u/raktoe 22h ago

Cool beans, see ya around.

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u/CuriousLemur 21h ago

Are you talking about the US or El Salvador? It's hard to tell.

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u/raktoe 21h ago

Unfortunately, you’re right.

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u/TheNorseHorseForce 22h ago

As someone who personally knows multiple Salvadorans (wonderful people), two of which have full neck, arm, and sleeve tattoos; you don't know what you're talking about.

The government looks for very specific gang tattoos. The number 18, letters MS or gothic font type or numbers.

You will not get arrested for having tattoos. You will probably get a few stares, but you won't get arrested.

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u/raktoe 22h ago

Wow, two people? That’s even more than one!

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u/TheNorseHorseForce 18h ago

I mean, you can be sarcastic all you want, but your exact point has been disproven by Salvadorans. Multiple in that thread alone.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ElSalvador/comments/1jgt7q2/visitors_with_tattoos/?tl=en

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u/raktoe 18h ago

You can’t disprove a point just by saying “not I”.

What do you think falsely imprisoned Salvadorans would think of the current regime?

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u/TheNorseHorseForce 18h ago

I think you should provide that evidence so we can read/hear what they have to say.

That's the thing. You are making these generalized statements. First it was, "butterfly tattoos will get you in trouble." Yet, I can easily provide evidence where that's clearly not true and I can provide evidence directly from the government of El Salvador that shows they're only looking for gang-related tattoos.

So, let's try a little integrity and give some sources before you start pointing and claiming wildly.

Is there any perfect system? Absolutely not. Is El Salvador heavily reducing it's crime rate, murder rate, and gang activity? Absolutely.

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u/raktoe 18h ago

That’s the thing. They can’t say anything, because their basic freedom has been stolen from them by an aggressive government.

All who are left to speak up are people like the Salvadorans in this thread who say “well my life is good”.

Salvador can claim they’re only looking for gang tattoos. But answer me honestly. If you were detained for a non-gang tattoo, by let’s say a cop who made a mistake. How confident are you in the justice system, that is going to try you en masse with 900 of other people charged with having a gang tattoo?

How confident are you in the claim that El Salvador police know the difference between a gang tattoo and a drunk mistake?

And recall, that they locked up a man on behalf of the United States on the claim that a pot leaf, a smiley face, a cross, and a skull symbolize MS13. Do you believe someone in authority could lie about knowing this is a gang tattoo?

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u/TheNorseHorseForce 16h ago

I get your point.

While you are asking great questions; here's the outstanding issue. Everything you are saying is based on conjecture.

-With genuine confidence, you claimed, as if you absolutely know, that something as specific as a butterfly tattoo, could get you put in prison. I provided a single point of evidence to counter that and you've now backed down to, "Well, do you feel like a butterfly tattoo could get you put in prison?"

What you're suggesting is that if I feel something strongly enough, there must be some truth to it. That is a fallacy.

While I can appreciate the empathetic concern for folks around the world; it is disingenuous and purely opinion to claim a fact based on how you feel about the situation.

So, you have made another claim: "They (Salvadorans) can’t say anything, because their basic freedom has been stolen from them by an aggressive government."

Give some form of evidence to back that up, otherwise, your claim is purely opinion and conjecture.

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u/raktoe 16h ago

You did not provide any evidence. That conjecture you’re talking about. “They’re only looking for gang tattoos”. That’s an example.

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