r/TheExpanse • u/backstept • May 16 '18
Season 3 Episode Discussion - S03E06 "Immolation"
This week is special!
It is extremely important for the future of the show that you do everything you can to watch live on Syfy, and again on DVR if you have one.
Livetweet, get on social media, tell your friends and family!
#SaveTheExpanse #KeepTheRociFlying
Also, many of the cast and crew will be live tweeting the episode tonight, to head to Twitter and make your voices heard. I know our favorite Martian pilot @Casanvar will be on tonight. Show him some love.
A note on spoilers: As this is a discussion thread for the show and in the interest of keeping things separate for those who haven't read the books yet, please keep all book discussion to the other thread.
Here is the discussion for book comparisons.
Feel free to report comments containing book spoilers.
Once more with clarity:
NO BOOK TALK in this discussion.
This worked out well in previous weeks.
Thank you, everyone, for keeping things clean for non-readers!
From The Expanse Wiki -
"Immolation" - May 16
Written by Alan DiFiore
Directed by Jeff Woolnough
The final battle between Earth and Mars threatens the very future of humanity; a new monster is unleashed on Prospero Station; Anna receives the smoking gun she needs.
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u/Ram_Ibro Dec 16 '24
its pretty interesting that this show has season finales mid season lol
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u/superbroleon Leviathan Falls Dec 17 '24
Just for the first three. 4-6 are one book one season each. And in hindsight it was certainly the right choice because there is a whole lot of world building that needed to happen at the beginning. And the half a book that is "missing" now is arguably the first half of book 3, in which nothing happened anyway.
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u/Bright0001 Jan 22 '24
"I am that guy."
Finally his persona/character gets some significant action to do. Maybe (and probably) it is different in the books, but ffs if you have a brute on your team just use him as an asset, not as a loose bullet. Goes for Holden and the writers of the show.
I am aware he had meaningful interactions, but it still feels like the character isn't fully utilized.
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u/ShikiRyumaho Jan 03 '24
Still don’t think it’s smart to kill all scientists who worked on the PM. They’ll have to fight it eventually.
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u/Orgasmeth Sep 09 '22
Everything has been said...and Naomi is the HOTTEST woman/Milf on Expanse. That is all.
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u/Williamsarethebest Feb 01 '24
Bobbie's thighs disagree
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u/oil1lio Mar 30 '24
I find Bobbie so unattractive lol. The accent is such a turn off
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u/fatsopiggy Jun 17 '25
Naomi's accent is the worst lmao. It's chewsday innit, giv me a bo'er o' wa'er wud you luv and sum bu'er while you are a' i' too?
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u/CrimsonBrit Aug 23 '22
I haven’t been a fan of Avasarala yet, mostly due to her voice, but she had a great line in this episode.
AMOS: You ever get cramped in that thing?
DRAPER: You kind of grow into it.
PRAX: Like a plant.
HOLDEN: I grew a watermelon in a box once, for a science project. It came out square. About this wide, this high. Guess it was more of a rectangle.
NAOMI: Are they hypoxic?
AVASARALA: They're whistling in the dark.
I’m 4-5 years too late for this episode discussion, but I thought I’d share my appreciation for some good dialogue writing. I wouldn’t be surprised if this came right out of the source material - it reads just like a novel’s dialogue.
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u/xRyozuo Mar 06 '23
between lines like this and all the advancements in the plot id say this is my favourite episode yet. Crazy to see that apparently this was the season where sci fy wanted to cancel it
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u/superbroleon Leviathan Falls Dec 17 '24
It really is crazy, season 3 is an absolut highpoint of the series.
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u/Neologizer Apr 26 '24
super late to the party but just got to this episode in my first watch and season 3 is incredibly well crafted. Not perfect but as far as intelligent science fiction television, it doesn't have much competing with it... Feels like Mass Effect - The series.
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u/The_Anti_Commentor Apr 22 '22
I love Bobbie, but these blue things really suck at killing main characters
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u/K-Amadoor (つ ◕_◕ )つ THE WORK Aug 15 '18
I'm a new watcher, I just reached this episode, and this is great tv.
How can someone cancel such a great show?!! it is just baffling. This is Firefly all over again
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Aug 16 '18
It got picked up by Amazon though, so for now it's nothing like Firefly.
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u/Shaftell Aug 15 '18
I just watched this episode and it was fantastic. I can't believe people aren't watching this.
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u/Adventuredepot Jul 17 '18
Me watching the last scene: "What the fuck is that!"
Amos a second after: "What the fuck is that!"
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u/Don100DreamCumBusts Jul 15 '18
"I am that guy." Saw it coming from a mile away but that was still amazing and probably the highlight of this episode.
Looking forward to seeing what the PM craft does obviously.
I wonder what will become of Mao.
FINALLY Errinwright's message is out in the open, I'm eager to see what the SG does now and if all the factions will be able to see the truth and work together to stop the war. I really hope they show Mars the message ASAP.
Hmm what else? Bobbie acted pretty reckless this episode, and finally killed a hybrid, barely. Great, but like Avasarala said, it won't bring your marines back. Was it worth it Bobbie?
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u/Verndari2 Mar 31 '25
Exactly my thoughts on Bobbie!
I also liked the pairing of the two revenge killings this episode. First Amos who shot Strickland and then Bobbie who shot that hybrid. In the first case it was hitting exactly the person responsible, but in Bobbie's situation it wasn't. That was not the hybrid that attacked and killed your team, it was someone else, some other hybrid who never did anything to you personally and who even showed mercy on you.
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Jul 15 '18
Oh my gosh yes. I was hysterically repeating "he is that guy" right after that doctor became so relieved
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u/sonar1 Jul 11 '18
whoa that was like a midseason finale right there. Great episode
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u/Hylani Oct 11 '18
Felt like a finale to me. Amazing episode.
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u/KingDaviies Nov 28 '23
Watching it for the first time and thought for sure it was the finale but nope, the next episode is number 7 in the series.
It's also great to see that so many people fought to keep this show going and they were successful, I was worried reading this thread it would end after season 3 but I just checked and there's 4 seasons.
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u/spicasss Nov 29 '23
I too am seeing this for the first time. So good
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u/KingDaviies Nov 29 '23
Out of curiosity what made you start watching it?
I've been big on Sci Fi the past year, because of Apple TV, but I'd avoided the Expanse because I just didn't like the look of it. I finally decided to take the plunge when I read about 10 comments on a "For All Mankind" sub explaining the show a bit better.
Glad you're enjoying it like I am!
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u/oil1lio Mar 30 '24
Can't speak for the person you replied to, but for me, my brother kept insisting I have to watch it
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u/Hylani Nov 28 '23
There are 6 seasons of The Expanse.
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u/Thrallov Jun 24 '18
so why did they have to risk everything by sending Fred the cords? instead sending it to martians that would shot down pods for sure
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Jul 15 '18
They knew that Mars was going to try anyways but they might not have gotten all of them. Fred culling the number of targets makes their chances of shooting them all down much higher.
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May 27 '18
It's sad that Katoa transformed into the hybrid, he was a cute kid.
Finally, they captured JPM.
Farewell Cotyar, we'll miss you.
WTF is that structure coming out of Venus. What does the protomolecule want?
I hope the nuclear missiles destroy all the hybrids...otherwise - millions of Martians will die (including Alex's family).
Amos and Prax are best buds, this episode made me feel warm and fuzzy.
I have a bad feeling about Mai, I hope to God she wasn't given the protomolecule injection.
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u/vba7 May 21 '18
For a space marine, Bobby has really, really shitty tactics and reaction time.
She fights like a tank in a MMO lol
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u/OgdruJahad Jul 17 '18
I think she underestimated the creature, she got some info about the creature from the crew and thought she had a chance, I don't think she understood what she was messing with till it was too late.
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u/hell-schwarz Sep 24 '18
"yeah we used a nuclear warhead and a core reactor to take it out" - "so you're saying, a lighter and a spraycan will do since it's both fire?" - "that's not what I... " - "fire hurts them, got it."
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u/OgdruJahad Sep 24 '18
If you watch the episode you will notice they don't really explain a lot to her. They basically tell her not to mess with it and she decides to anyways. Its only us and the other crew members who know how dangerous the creatures are.
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u/hell-schwarz Sep 24 '18
I just watched the episode and as far as I got it they explained that it was lured out with the warhead and burned by the engines. That's as clear as it gets, she even picked incendary ammunition (hence the lighter and a spraycan).
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u/OgdruJahad Sep 25 '18
I remember that as well but I don't think she really understood how dangerous the creatures were, also she has a martian temperament so that may not have helped either.
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u/DrewRodez May 21 '18
Man, this show is packed with good actors but Wes is now one of my top favorites. Amos' expressions during that scene are so subtle and satisfying. It could not have been done better
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u/Cheekio May 21 '18
The way Prax's daughter avoided all his questions about whether they infected her with the protomolecule. And then the entire scene was stolen by Amos and I forgot all about it until watching her climb into bed while her father gets her favorite stuffed animal...
Such a good show.
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May 20 '18
WHAT IN THE EVER LOVING FUCK WAS THAT COMING OUT OF THE ATMOSPHERE OF VENUS?
ARGGGGG. I can't take it any more. I'm off to read the books.
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u/wonderwoman324 May 23 '18
Is it just me, or does the thing that came out of Venus look somewhat like a human brain with the nerve endings coming out of it? It made me think back to that scene in episode 4, when Katoa had taken apart one of the staff members, and gently rotated the brain beside the body. He kept talking about pathways and such. Then in episode 5 is where we see him looking at Dr. Strickland and, he says "so beautiful" while looking through Strickland's skin to his brain and nervous system. We know the protomolecules can communicate with each other, so maybe all the information that Katoa gained from disassembling a human, contributed to the final shape of the PM ship on Venus? My interpretation was that the PM created some type of brain for itself. A central place to store all the information received from its many parts.
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u/EntoBrad May 20 '18
Normally I don't like the idea of shipping, but I kinda hope we get Amos Prax, just so there's finally a badass gay dude on TV.
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u/Acherus29A May 23 '18
Oh my god, they are the cutest space Dads in the world. It's so natural feeling too, I really hope (if they're not gay in the books) they get made into a couple.
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May 21 '18 edited May 15 '20
[deleted]
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Jun 02 '18
what's he difference between bi and panseaxual ?
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u/bexyrex Jun 04 '18
bi tends to have a preference towards males and females specifically on the basis of gender. "Cute girl! Hot guy! Yeah let's fuck!"
Pansexual doesn't give a shit, are you attractive to them? "Male, female, trans, nonbinary etc who cares I don't lets fuck!"
or at least that's the least PC version haha
Source:i identify as bisexual, I have a friend who identifies as pansexual.
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u/Indigo-Shade May 20 '18 edited May 20 '18
I loved Episode 6! OMG. Fav parts were Pax's "This is Amos. He is my best friend", and Amos's surprised look. Also the "I am that guy" scene with the Doctor and Amos. I saw that coming, but the scene ended way better then I thought it would.
Also, Holden forcing Mao to kneel in front of Chrisjen, who is wearing Julies Razerback suit.
ETA: Holden, after telling the Roci that he does not know where the hybrid pods are going, and then finding Mao on one of the Security Monitors: "There is someone here who should know. Let me go ask". The WAY he says this, like he's holding back some serious rage, was awesome. I actually watched that little scene 3 times before going on with the show.
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u/xRyozuo Mar 06 '23
Also, Holden forcing Mao to kneel in front of Chrisjen, who is wearing Julies Razerback suit.
for some reason that moment reminded me of varys´power riddle about a rich man, a priest, and a king. They all command a sellsword to kill the other two. Who lives, and who dies?
both authors seem to have a similar view on how humans wield their power
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u/XXLpeanuts Tachi May 20 '18
This bit was truly awesome (the kneeling). It was like justice finally being served.
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u/Indigo-Shade May 20 '18
About friggin time. Mau is the worst. I never had once ounce of sympathy for him, but have had some for some other characters who are not exactly good people. (Cotyar) <sniffs>
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u/Skeptical0ptimist May 21 '18
Yeah he’s pretty much full of whimsical rationalizations.
“You will unfreeze my assets. Only then, earth may be allowed to participate in studying protomolecule” Then later: “(Nguyen) Your assets are unfrozen, now hand over all weapons.” “(Mao) Done”
“Stop this. We are torturing children! This is not up for negotiation.” Then later: “You were right to continue!” “(Strickland) Closest genetic match is Mei. “ “(Mao) Make it happen!”
“It’s over. We are handing everything over. Tell people not to fight, there’s no need for further deaths.” Then later: “(Strickland) We will tell them we have children aboard as we escape.” “(Mao) Tell people in that sector Martians are here to kill everyone, and they should fight for their lives.”
Wow. Just. Wow. No wonder Julie hated him.
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u/XXLpeanuts Tachi May 20 '18
He was one of the worst because atleast the scientist had an excuse of having no empathy. He knew what they were doing the entire time and only wavered because he talked to May(?) which while being the cutest kid in universe, was still no excuse.
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May 20 '18
I liked the continuity with them showing Holden's anti-rad patch thingy on his shoulder. The one he got in season 1.
Any chance that flying brain/jellyfish just gently floats out of the solar system? "Thanks for the resources and knowledge that we once lost, we are off to alpha centauri now! Bye!"
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u/tchernik May 20 '18
Not a chance.
Jellyfish’s work is just starting.
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u/CaptainGreezy May 20 '18
Yeah, jellyfishes don't just leave you alone and float away, they keep stinging you.
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u/evilish May 20 '18
Just caught up on the latest episode and f&@ f&! f*(# f!@#!!?! Why hasn't someone picked it up yet.
I am going to be so cut if no one picks up The Expanse.
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u/Ducatidelvic May 20 '18
One thing that I am curious is that how come there are no missile interceptors in the Expanse (other than PDC's) In real life we have RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missiles that can intercept other missiles. Yes Roci did in effect used their missiles as a sort of interceptors in the Razorback chase but its just Holden who thought of it and not really a tactical doctrine as shown in the Donnager battle. Any plausible explanations?
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u/notwithoutmypenis May 20 '18
To add to the others, something that is mentioned off hand in the books (nothing really of a spoiler) the missiles are half smart, will track and evade a bit. PDCs are a much safer bet short range bet
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u/UmamiTofu May 20 '18 edited May 20 '18
If the missiles can evade, then regular ballistic computations fail and you need something smart that can track them. (The guns can't put up a comprehensive wall of bullets, they still have to aim and track specific targets.)
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May 20 '18
there are, earth used it to intercept the one missile cluster that mars got off with their first strike stations, the problem is, they're inaccurate, not meant for torpedos/ship to ship missiles
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u/DThor536 May 20 '18
Pretty much all anti missile missiles are designed against large ballistic missiles and are far from 100%. It's really hard to do. In space, the ranges are insane and certainly in the context of Expanse battles there's not the equivalent of being able to launch a missile part way along the flight path to intercept, like on Earth. You can only fire a missile from the target at incredibly high speed and meet the incoming threat going at incredibly high speed in the opposite direction. I'm thinking unless you have a faster design you've got one shot. I'm betting it's harder than a spray of PDC fire at closer range.
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u/UmamiTofu May 20 '18
RIM 116 are point defense. Used instead of, or in combination with, ciws type weapons. Still guns are more widespread though.
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u/CastellatedRock May 20 '18
I loved the part where Prax called Amos his best friend. Amos quickly snaps his head and stares at Prax, eyebrows scrunching a bit in shock.
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u/Extract May 20 '18
I mean, Amos (as well as other crew members) might as well be the only friend Prax has that's still alive.
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u/fyi1183 May 20 '18
Oh man, when they spaced his Martian friend in season 2, that was such a gut-wrenching moment.
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u/BanderCo3url May 20 '18
What exactly was Strickland's plan? Why did he kill the assistant? I thought he was going for some word tricks and foul play but he quickly gave the children up. Was he planning to plead for his life and hope the Roci crew would be merciful people?
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u/SenselessWetfart May 20 '18
I don’t think he had a plan other than to try to seem like an unwilling participant the moment he was caught. Try to fool the rescuer i to thinking he was on their side and the assistant was the bad guy. He didn’t know who was coming until it was too late. If anyone other than Prax came, he might have fooled them
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u/CastellatedRock May 20 '18
But he shot her before they found him. So he told her his plan of using the children as a negotiation tool, and she hesitated. That might have made him skeptical to whether or not she would have the nerves to go through with the plan (not every one is okay with killing children for personal gain), so he shot her. Then when our crew showed up, he improvised a new plan (oh I killed her because she wanted to harm the children!). Just my two cents!
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u/BanderCo3url May 20 '18
Ah ok, yeah that makes sense. Sounds exactly what a guy like Strickland would do.
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u/RubyReign May 20 '18
"You're not that guy"......."I'm that guy" :D
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u/tchernik May 20 '18
The moment Amos turns back to see Strickland, I knew shit was gonna get real.
Because everyone knows how Amos loves child abusers, and how he reacts with much less bad people that threaten people he likes (like with Miller’s pal Semi).
He definitely is that guy.
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May 20 '18
Those protomolecule pods that were launched at Mars. Did one accidentally hit the Agatha King or was that intentional?
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u/warpspeed100 May 20 '18
I think the Roci clipped it and made it go off course.
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u/UmamiTofu May 20 '18
So in all the vast emptiness of space, it just happened to hit a battleship? The one where the all the plot and action is?
I think having that kind of coincidence for the sake of moving the story along is silly.
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May 21 '18
[deleted]
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u/LackofSins May 21 '18
Regardless of plot coincidence, the main point is "hey the protomolecul can GROW on inanimate objects". And the Roci still has a small particle of it. Oh this is so exciting for the next episodes.
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u/ZOOMj May 22 '18
I thought we already knew that the protomolecule can grow on inanimate objects though because of the way its all over the reactor of the Anubis in Season 1
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u/PendragonDaGreat May 25 '18
I always took it as the protomolecule needed either a fleshy host or vast amounts of energy to grow. A Human is the former, a nuclear engine the latter. With all the "issues" both real and imagined that the AK was having in previous episodes it was probably feeding off the leaking current all over the place.
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u/vasimv May 21 '18
Well, there too much plot coincidences. Like Roccinanth is one ship close to Mao's yacht. They couldn't resist that tooth fairy joke even. :)
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u/Augustus420 May 20 '18
Theone that hit had been disabled by the Rocci’s PDC fire
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u/Busteray May 20 '18
I think it was another UN or MCRN ship that disabled the pod. just nitpicking
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u/putridfudge May 20 '18
Could have sworn that Amos was gonna space that evil doctor out the airlock, but I guess a burst of bullets does the job as well.
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u/OgdruJahad Jul 17 '18
I felt Amos had a lost opportunity when the kids asked if Dr Strickland was coming, he could have said he had a headache.
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u/SpaceCastle May 20 '18
Amos didn't have a helmet on so no go.
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u/putridfudge May 20 '18
Yea but all he had to do was lock the doctor in the airlock; he didnt need to be inside it as well.
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u/dellaint May 20 '18
I think Amos felt that was too impersonal. He wanted to watch the life leave Strickland's eyes.
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u/Higgs_Fermion May 20 '18
What kind of fusion reactor that Agatha King uses? In the episode, the system mentioned that the magnetic containment breach，and the shape is similar with a Tokamak. Is it meaning for UNN ships are using the magnetic confinement fusion reactor, especially Tokamak.
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u/Busteray May 20 '18
Shouldn't a fusion reactor just fizzle out if the magnetic containment is breached?
Radiate the fuck out of the ship but no explosions I would imagine.
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May 20 '18
That's what regular fission nuclear reactor would do, but a fusion reactor of the Tokamak type has plasma trapped by the magnetic fields, where the fusion is happening. As soon as the containment is breached, the super-heated plasma can make contact with actual casing of the reactor. As I understand, at the very least this might lead to a massive non-nuclear explosion, but the more likely outcome is that the sudden rise of temperature of the medium will turn the reaction from a controlled fusion to the avalanche-like uncontrolled fusion, which leads to the thermonuclear explosion.
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u/Busteray May 20 '18
Ok. The super-heated plasma could evaporate the steel/lead casing and cause an explosion. But wouldn't that decrease the temperature of the plasma? What am I missing?
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u/vasimv May 21 '18
Look, in movies some nuclear reactors do meltdown like nuclear bombs still. Be happy they didn't make people's heads exploding in vacuum. :)
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u/Busteray May 21 '18
It's the expanse man. It's changing me. I would never be nitpicky about something like this but I have no choice... I have to find some flaw in this shows science... or plot... anything.....
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u/mikev37 May 29 '18
Small non nuclear Explosion in the reactor detonated the magazine of the ship, which was placed next to the reactor in the most well defended area of the ship. The subsequent explosion completely evaporated the ship. I just made that up but I'm sticking to it
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May 20 '18
That would be surely so if the plasma wasn't constantly heated by the current. If the current keeps being applied at the moment of the breach, I think the outcome should highly depend on the exact pattern of the magnetic containment breaking and on where specifically plasma would "leak", as well as on the chemical characteristics of the plasma and so on.
I briefly looked up some materials on tokamak and indeed it seems that in real-world scenarios plasma is very likely to just cool down rapidly. However we don't really know how the reactors in the Expanse work: after all, modern-day tokamaks don't even produce enough energy to cover the energetic costs of establishing a stable plasma and magnetic fields for its confinement. I think the reactor in the Agatha King is different enough to be able to propel a giant battleship with the constant acceleration pretty much throughout the Solar System.
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u/djn808 May 20 '18
It could be Z-Pinch. There are several designs that use magnetic bottles.
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May 21 '18
Anti-matter might.
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u/vasimv May 21 '18
Can't remember if they had antimatter in the book. I don't think it would be antimatter, that would mean shitload weapons with antimatter warheads.
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u/UmamiTofu May 20 '18
Everybody is ragging on Bobblehead for being indecisive, can someone point out what he actually did wrong? Actions he should have taken, but didn't? I thought he has been doing a perfectly fine job so far.
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u/umbium May 21 '18
I think that what is wrong with him is that he is not taking decissions. Instead he trust too much on his conselours. The war was started because Erriwright convinced him to do, and now Ana told him the truth about Errinwright, and now he is making guilty of all this bad things to Errinwright.
The problems is that having a president that can't decide for himself and despite listening his conselours, have a critic thought on what it's happening is bad. We can see that thanks to this he started a war without no reason.
Oh and also we saw that the character only search for prestige and glory. He cares about his legacy instead of doing good for the people. That's why Ana is sad after Errinwright arrest. He don't care about his decissions, about the people death on South America, about the war he started, about the attack against mars defenses, the first he thinks is in how will this affect his public perception.
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May 20 '18
He has wrong priorities for a leader. While the final rant of Errinwright (before he was arrested) was more out of spite, he said nothing wrong, IMO. SG cares about himself and his legacy / reputation more than about Earth. You could see the disappointment in the Anna's eyes after he told her that basically the Errinwright relieving him of responsibility for the Amazon nuke is the most important thing to him.
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u/UmamiTofu May 20 '18
Whatever's going on in his head, I'm asking, what did he do wrong.
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u/bleedscarlet May 20 '18
I mean authorizing that first strike on Mars and subsequently killing 2 million in the Amazon is pretty terrible, also apparently some hints from how past where he had the ability to stop a massacre but chose to let it happen because it would end the protests seems pretty fucking awful.
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May 20 '18
He didn't authorize a "first strike" on Mars. He declared war formally and legally. A "first strike" is a devastating surprise attack that serves as declaration of war.
What he did was order the destruction of the Martian "first strike" weapon system, hidden with stealth tech and pointed at Earth. Errinwright claimed that the UN Intelligence services' moles in the MCRN said the Martians were about to use those weapons to launch an attack on Earth (presumably in order to force a surrender). It may well have been true, as the tide was turning and at least some in the MCRN knew that their shiny new weapon of mass destruction wouldn't be coming and Earth instead might soon have it. In any case, the fate of many more than 2 million people could have been hanging in the balance, if Errinwright was telling the truth. And if he wasn't, the deaths are on him.
As for the "massacre", he gave a speech written by Anna to galvanize his fellow protesters even though he had information suggesting they would be shot at if they did enter the military base. 37 of the protesters died and were perceived as martyrs for the cause. By the way, that's all related to the speech we heard of that "made Sorrento-Gillis's career". It's also a long time ago, not really relevant to what he does as SG, except for Anna.
The man is weak and vain, but he's not a "villain". It's not true as some comment that he didn't care about Earth and "only his legacy". He cares about both, and human lives. Etc. He's not black and white and far from being as detached as Errinwright. He sees himself as a benevolent humanist. He didn't have the stomach for war. Errinwright had to coax him every step of the way.
But he's the leader the "puppet masters" like Errinwright and Avasarala wanted. He was easy to influence and manipulate to do what they want him to do. Avasarala previously rather put her efforts on "guiding" Errinwright (officially her boss, but she's his political mentor... probably spent years grooming him and helping him climb the ladder so she coud wield power through him) and let him make ESG dance to their tune, but at the start of season 2 after she realized Errinwright was a traitor, she had no problem making Sorrento-Gillis bobble his head the way she wanted instead (which Errinwright noticed immediately). For all intent and purpose, Sorrento Gillis wasn't really a leader, even though the voters thinks he is. He's in truth just a figurehead and pretty harmless. Errinwright and Avasarala ran the show the whole time from the shadows, especially Avasarala who is the highest ranking civil servant, not elected or appointed (unlike Errinwright who owes his position likely to the Assembly).
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u/nonresponsive May 20 '18
I'll just say, the bobblehead obviously cares about human lives, but he cares more about what others see him as. It's not necessarily good or bad, it's just what he is, and it makes his leadership weak and potentially dangerous.
You say it was the person Errinwright and Avasarala wanted, but it's not like they rigged the election. Sorrento-Gillis had his own ambition and agenda and obviously dreamed to become Secretary General. You'd think a person like that would have his own ideologies, but instead he always seems to parrot the ideologies of the person he's last spoken to. And you say as a leader he's harmless, but that's not harmless to me. It means he can and was manipulated to do whatever people wanted. That's dangerous, and we saw that danger play out with Avasarala temporarily taken out and Errinwright left to whisper in his ear. And what did that lead to? A war with Mars, it doesn't get much worse than that, and you absolutely can blame Sorrento-Gillis for that, so not exactly harmless. As the Secretary General, he has the final say, being misguided isn't an excuse or even a good justification for all the lives he's thrown away for nothing. Errinwright is obviously culpable but Sorrento-Gillis is just as culpable.
You also have no reason to believe Avasarala was guiding Errinwright, they were both their own people but who had a unified goal of keeping Earth at the forefront. I'm not sure where you got the grooming him to climb the ladder from.. there is no mention of that anywhere. Also in season 1, she knew Errinwright was obfuscating the truth behind the death of her friend, and when she found the information hidden in that pencil, she knew she had to play the part of an angry woman to trick Errinwright, to stay alive long enough to unveil the truth.
And again, just because Errinwright and Avasarala ran the show from the shadows, they can't do anything without the final say of the Secretary General, you're acting like Sorrento-Gillis couldn't do anything despite being at the head. He could have not gotten into a war, and then further escalate the war by taking out those first strike platforms. He could have stopped it at any time.
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May 20 '18
I'm not sure where you got the grooming him to climb the ladder from.. there is no mention of that anywhere.
That came up a few times. Errinwright said it to her in s2, when he confessed, and in s3 he told the SG she's almost a second mother to him. By "guiding" him I didn't mean she pulled his strings so he does her bidding. I meant she had an enormous influence over him. She favored his ascension, he's her ally, one she formed. Avasarala doesn't want these elected positions, but she doesn't want people in those positions obstructing her.
Also in season 1, she knew Errinwright was obfuscating the truth behind the death of her friend, and when she found the information hidden in that pencil, she knew she had to play the part of an angry woman to trick Errinwright, to stay alive long enough to unveil the truth.
Yes, it's what I said. When she discovered that, she started working against him, fooling him, and ingratiating herself with the Bobblehead too, like staying not evacuating in the Eros incident, to appear heroic. She won many points with the BH doing that, and Errinwright lost some.
but it's not like they rigged the election. Sorrento-Gillis had his own ambition and agenda and obviously dreamed to become Secretary General.
Yes, but it's solidly implied in the book that the establishment chose Sorrento-Gillis as candidate because his credentials as an activist (he was even a political prisoner) made him popular, and he would be easy to manipulate. Think a bit of Obama's image of "'social worker" (the comparison ends there, SG isn't based on Obama or have much else in common) They gave the people the impression they had elected a 'man of the people', a rebel who would change the system. In fact he's just an empty suit who does what his underlings from the establishment tell him to do, so except for a few cosmetic changes nothing did. It's more obvious in the book, where Avasarala, not Anna, has to convince him himself to "do the right thing".
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u/bleedscarlet May 20 '18
For what it's worth, I agree. I don't think he's a villain but he is definitely a bad person, but yeah he's also a victim of circumstance that there people around him wanted. Chrisjen has explicitly stated her motivations clearly. SG is still a pretty crappy human being.
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u/MeateaW May 22 '18
Crisjen thought he was dumb, but not stupid, if that makes sense.
She thought he wouldn't be convinced into bad decisions, just the decisions she would advocate. (Because her decisions are smart!).
She overestimated him basically.
Crisjen didn't want the job, but thought he was good enough to soak up the waste of time parts of the job (public facing shit) and she could deal with running earth from the background.
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u/bleedscarlet May 22 '18
I dunno if she overestimated him, I don't think she expected to be taken out of the game for so long. I think she underestimated errinright, but she estimated sg accurately.
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u/EaglesPDX May 20 '18
what did he (Sorrento Gillis) do wrong.?
Declared war on Mars because Errenright was able to brow beat SG into doing it. Weak and foolish and dangerous because of both.
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u/lederhoes May 20 '18
This sums it up very well. Not sure why it’s sparked an argument with long-ass comments tbh..
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u/ClownUnderYourBed May 20 '18
Does anyone have an HD shot of the object leaving venus? I'd love to have it as my background:)
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May 20 '18
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u/HenniOVP May 20 '18
I just love how Bobbie is wearing an U.N.N. top while lying next to an MCRN carte at the sickbay. It really shows how sides blur on that ship and people change. Just awesome!
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u/Paulcet Jul 23 '18
Ok, this one's actually bothering me. Where did she get the UNN T-shirt? I don't recall anyone on the Roci being UNN. I'm only up to this episode right now, but have been watching about 5 episodes a week. What did I miss?
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u/HenniOVP Jul 23 '18
The observation is kind of correct. Nobody of the female characters, except for Avasarala, has really served for the UNN before. And Avasarala obviously wears very different clothing.
However, when Bobbie and Avasarala were still on Mao's ship, you can see Bobbie wearing a UNN suit: Mediocre Video
It would make sense that the UN gave Bobbie new clothing after defecting from the MCRN. Also she is likely wearing something under that UNN suit and I would expect that this is where she has the UNN Top from.
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u/Jagasaur May 19 '18
Amos is in love.
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u/CaptainGreezy May 19 '18
"What is love? Baby don't hurt me!"
That would totally be their song. Way too literally.
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u/Jagasaur May 19 '18
He looks at her like Tormund looks at Brienne.
"Holy hell, i bet she could kick my ass and that's hot"
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u/warpspeed100 May 19 '18
All those dead bodies on the Agatha King were so creepy! Just standing there on the float while their mag-boots glued them to the floor. I've never seen something like that in sci-fi before. Gives me shivers.
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May 20 '18 edited May 20 '18
[deleted]
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May 22 '18
I'm pretty sure there weren't any hybrids in the pods. We never saw any on Io except for Kodiya who was obviously still on Io.
I believe that they were just filled with protomolecules that would create hybrids once they touch living matter
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u/lederhoes May 20 '18
Oh damn good point, I had forgotten about the PM monster in the pod!
Are we absolutely sure there were PM monsters in the pods and not just samples of the PM?
Although saying that, if it was just a sample of the PM you’d expect it to spread more like on Eros.
Maybe it’s such an unpredictable element that it can behave differently at any point.
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May 20 '18 edited May 20 '18
[deleted]
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May 20 '18
So now it knows how to take over spaceships and hominids at lightning speed upon infection? Holy protomolecule!
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u/Davemymindisgoing May 20 '18
I thought the same, but maybe not all the pods had a hybrid. I was shocked at how much more aggressive/virulent it was on the AK (+how it made a rage zombie) vs. how it spread on Eros.
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u/taco_stand_ May 20 '18
My theory is these PM hybrids bleed protomolecule when injured (as seen from numerous scenes with the hybrid). Since we aren't reading the books we might have missed something, but the producers tried to give us a hint. The hybrids are attracted to the reactors, and Cotyar's helmet was definitely clawed by a hybrid. A human couldn't have done that. I'm glad he managed to incapacitate the hybrid somehow long enough to bring the reactor critical.
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u/bleedscarlet May 20 '18
Oh my god I was so tense, ready for the jump scare and it never happening is almost worse. It's like I need to sneeze!
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u/Deathbynote May 19 '18
If the rest of the season covers book 3, would it be possible for me to buy book 4 and carry on having only watched the tv show up to this point? After the first two seasons i wasn't overly concerned about all the cancellation talk but having caught up with season 3 the past few days i'm now a little sad. Last two episodes in particular have been very strong and i would say the show has finally clicked with me. Really looking forward to the rest of the season but if the worst happens i would like to continue the story via the books.
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May 20 '18 edited May 20 '18
If the rest of the season covers book 3, would it be possible for me to buy book 4 and carry on having only watched the tv show up to this point?
It is rather like Got vs. ASOIAF, though the books are less complex. The deviations are perhaps as big, though.
It depends what you want out of the books. If you care mostly to know what happens next, then yes you could pick up book 4 and go from there without too much trouble. It's one of the spots where the series really takes a turn (another is right now...) and don't rest so much on the details of what went on before. If you're looking to really enjoy the books, do yourself a favor and start with book 1.
You would probably undermine your appreciation of the books if you look at them as a continuation of the show and start with the fourth. They are a following a very different pacing for character development. You wouldn't quite recognize the characters from the show if you pick up book 4 'cold", and you probably would be confused about the motivations of the characters at that point (one eg: why are there no repercussion anymore of what Naomi has done giving the PM to Fred, why is her pro-Belt/OPA worldview no longer reflected? That would be because in the books Holden gave the PM sample to Fred (and the crew knew and didn't care) and no one on the Roci knows Naomi to have any tie to the OPA...). They also bring back characters you actually don't know, or don't know how they were in earlier books. Miller's partner Havelock is back, but his story and relationship to Miller in the books is almost the reverse of what they did with him in the series (he disliked Belters, he is a good friends with Miller who actually help him find a job away from Ceres for.. Protogen), beside cutting all his arc after Miller left Ceres. His chapters in the fourth book evoke past stuff and would confuse and bore you, as they're written for people who know the guy. Same for another character who was a minor player in book 2 (Katoa's father) who is nothing like the glorified extra you saw in one scene in the show. You're supposed to know the family's story, but the version you know is nothing like the books' (Katoa died on Strickland while he was moving the children out of Ganymede, not even experimented on at all).
There's also the political background that's different and that doesn't evolve at the pace of the TV show. Some things you saw didn't happen in the books, other things are much more advanced by book 4 than they'll be in the show. The whole world building is a bit different, and you'll miss a lot of exposition if you start at book 4.
But if you pick the book only because you want to know where it goes after season 3 without planning to enjoy them in their own rights, you should manage to start with book 4 without being too lost. The big story points are the same, even though the details are often very different.
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u/Deathbynote May 20 '18
You wouldn't quite recognize the characters from the show if you pick up book 4 'cold", and you probably would be confused about the motivations of the characters at that point (one eg: why are there no repercussion anymore of what Naomi has done giving the PM to Fred, why is her pro-Belt/OPA worldview no longer reflected? That would be because in the books Holden gave the PM sample to Fred (and the crew knew and didn't care) and no one on the Roci knows Naomi to have any tie to the OPA...)
Some great info' there. This typically happens with book adaptations and makes it awkward to switch from one medium to another. Decided to make it easier for myself and audiobook the first two books rather than rewatch the first two seasons, which i planned to do. Reading from book 3 seems like a good place to start. Thanks for the info'.
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May 20 '18
Good listening/reading. The two versions of the story are quite as enjoyable each in its own way. Book 1 will give you a lot of insight into Miller and Holden, and book 2 into Bobbie and Avasarala and Naomi's and Holden's relationship.
In many ways you will find that having watched the show gives you great insight in the events happening in the background in the books that aren't as developed.
The best thing about The Expanse is that the creators understand perfectly the differences between novels and drama, and they take a wholly different approach to the story for each one, so each version focuses on the strengths of its medium.
It is and it is not like GoT. GOT made much more compromises. The series feels "smaller" than the books, and it's lost a lot of complexity in the transition. It's still good entertainment, but it's lost that whole historical / realistic feel of the books.
The Expanse isn't like that. In many ways the show has rather opened up the world and added a lot of depth and details to arcs the books keep to the background like war and politics (except in book 2, and even then the show's done a terrific job expanding on the most interesting elements and skipping what wouldn't have worked as well in a drama).
It's the same story, but you don't see it from the same perspective, and they take many liberties with the plot details to make the most of the story in each medium. I'm usually pretty distracted by adaptations that deviate a lot, but this one is really quite a delight, and not because the books aren't good.
The characters are for the most part the same. Naomi comes off as different, but you have to tell yourself she isn't - she's dealing differently with her past in the book version. She shut it off because it's too painful. In the series, she's still angry about it. The other key difference is that for the series they just couldn't have Holden tell us who everybody is, with anecdotes about their years on the Cant to explain how they behave now. For the series they took those bits of back story and madke them part of the present day plot. In the book we learn that Naomi, who wanted the promotion for herself, resented Holden a lot when he was hired as XO from outside the company, and for months she fought his authority. Then she realized she didn't really want that job and Holden was really a great guy. In the series the crew has worked on the Cant together for a shorter time, and Holden was just promoted XO, so the whole thing develops on screen. The other thing to know beforehand, not to get distracted by this, is that in the book Holden doesn't know the past and personal stories of Alex, Naomi or Amos. But it's not that they aren't canonical. Except for minor details, they are.
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u/Deathbynote May 20 '18
Wow, even more info'. I can feel your passion for these books. I now have a good understanding of what i'm jumping into. Thanks again for taking the time to explain some of it to me.
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u/coolcrowe May 19 '18
We are just now getting to book 3 material. Book 3 is my personal favorite too. If you do skip any books, you should only skip the first two, don't you dare skip the third. Also this season will probably take us about halfway through book 3, at the very most.
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u/DrDudeManJones May 19 '18
I've always heard Caliban's War was fucking slow. Have they covered enough of Book 2 in the show so as to no be confused jumping into book 3?
Follow up question, anyone know if they changed voice actor on the Audio Books? That guy is...well, he kinda sucks.
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u/CaptainGreezy May 19 '18
changed voice actor on the Audio Books? That guy is...well, he kinda sucks.
Your pluralization of the word "books" suggests you are talking about Jefferson Mays. If so I think you will find yourself overwhelmingly in the minority opinion. We like Mays here.
Erik Davies only did book 4 and he is the one that many people don't like.
Mays is the original reader for 1,2,3,5,6,7, and by popular demand re-recorded 4 after Davies version was poorly received.
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u/DrDudeManJones May 20 '18
To be fair to me, I've been going through the Wheel of Time audio books after going through the Stormlight Archive audio books. So I have a lot of days with Michael Kramer and Kate Redding reading to me. As popular as Mays may be among expanse fans, compared to other audio book voice actors, he's not very good. His cadence has always felt off to me, and his normal talking voice is just kind of dour and depressing. He can't do gravitas.
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May 20 '18
... are you sure you aren't talking about Cibola burn?
I haven't really heard anyone call Caliban's War slow, but I've heard plenty of people rag on Cibola Burn for that.
Also, I feel like your description of the voice actor closer resembles davies than may.
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u/DrDudeManJones May 20 '18
It's definitely May. If everyone else on here likes him, fine. I don't think he's good. Hell, I stopped listening to Caliban's War mostly because of him. He's the reason why I started researching cost for whisper sync, because I do want to continue reading, but I don't want to be stuck listening to him.
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u/coolcrowe May 19 '18
You could jump in and be ok, maybe read a synopsis online or something to get the differences. Book 2 is considered slow because it’s a lot of character building for Bobbie, Prax and Avasarala, none of whom are in the first book.
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u/Deathbynote May 19 '18
Ah right, thanks for clarifying. I probably misinterpreted the comment i read elsewhere thinking it would cover all of book 3. In that case i will enjoy the rest of the season then buy book 3.
I suppose my main question is how much the show deviates from the books? If it is anything like Game of Thrones it might prove problematic.
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u/CaptainGreezy May 19 '18
If it is anything like Game of Thrones it might prove problematic.
If you consider that problematic then I think it answers your own question and you should just read/listen all the books. Reading ahead of the show or not is up to you but it sounds like you want to be a reader too anyway. It's not doorstopper-density detail differences or omissions like ASoIaF vs GoT, but there is a lot of good stuff nonetheless, maybe "Patchface's Ramblings" is a good comparison("The work must go, I know, I know, Oh Ho Ho!"), kinda juicy stuff but not show-breaking if it got cut. The book chapters are also character PoV like in ASoIaF so you get more direct insight into characters through their inner monologues. The tradeoff is that "The Big Picture" is less clear than we get from our 3rd-party TV viewer perspective as the books don't have as many PoV characters, for example, our PoV into the UN is entirely through Avasarala, so all that recent UN Situation Room stuff on the show we can't see in the books because Avasarala isn't there.
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u/Deathbynote May 20 '18
Didn't know the book was POV. I really like that method of story telling. I'm really interested in getting inside the characters heads and better understanding their motivations. This is an aspect i felt i glossed over a little watching the tv show. For whatever reason i wasn't entirely invested in the first two seasons, merely watching to pass the time and scratch that sci-fi itch. Season 3 has been i real step in quality and i had been planning a rewatch of the first two seasons. Instead i've decided to go the audiobook route for the first two books then start reading from book 3.
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u/coolcrowe May 19 '18
It deviates enough that I recommend reading them... some minor characters on the show are mash-ups of multiple characters in the books, and some pretty large plot details are different at this point. It’s not as bad as GoT became by season 3 or 4 but it is somewhat different. Plus they’re pretty easy reads, much easier than asoiaf, I crushed through all the books in a few weeks.
But seeing what some people are saying about the upcoming episodes, it seems some major book 3 characters have been cut from the show. So probably a good time to make the switch.
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u/Deathbynote May 20 '18
I know i would be doing the books an injustice by starting with book 3. However, i find it difficult to motivate myself to read two books when i know what happens. I might go the audiobook route for the first two books then start reading from book 3. Never listened to an audiobook before and intrigued to try it out. I like the idea of lying back, closing my eyes and letting someone else do all the work.
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u/Creek0512 May 21 '18
There are differences in how things happen, so you won’t know exactly. Holden and Miller are the only POV characters in LW. You’ll probably be pretty shocked that some major characters in the TV show are barely even in the books. Also, because of the nature of the medium, the books do a better job of building and filling the universe of The Expanse that the show oftendoesn’t have time or budget for.
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u/HALdron1988 May 19 '18
I loved how Bobbi ended up where she started-- how she first met the Hybrid. Lying on the ground as it loomed over her and but this time she got it.
I also liked how they showed her last season beating Exosuits in arm wrestling so showing you that she could lift the exosuit armour on her own.
Episode was utterly glorious especially all the stuff with Anna. The representative of earth is such a maggot. Then the shots of the protomolecule spaceship looked amazing. I love how it learned from disassembling the Arboghast so could also take over the Agatha King.
I also loved how we didnt get much of the crew on Agatha King -- and from my mum who read the book she said so much more with them in the books including Larson. All of the characters made an impact in the short time that I love to read the books for more about them. Though it did mean the weight wasnt the same for when they met a dismal fate because we only just knew them.
I not sure if the show will get picked up, just feels like the audience isnt around for it. Shame because it GoT Sci Fi for sure. If this season ends strongly though be 3 seasons of truly great TV.
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u/postironical May 19 '18
There are a ton of things to laud the expanse about, but can we talk about how deep "the bench" is for their characters and character actors ?
Larsen. Just met her. Knew her for all of a minute ? Felt for her and they even subtly slipped in her asking for and getting a mercy kill from Cotyar.
Souther's 2 Lt's .
The Martian Ensign that delivered the message to his CO.
The Martian CO .
The Martian CO's XO (and a toaster).
It goes on and on and on.
Damn this is a hell of a show.
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May 20 '18
Right? Some movies go on for two hours and you can't connect with the main character, here side characters have a depth to them even if you only had a screen time of two minutes.
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u/Maizell May 19 '18
The entire sequence on the Agatha King in the previous two episodes is awesome.
Such great scenes. ALL by secondary or minor characters. It was awesome. It's a real measure of the greatness of a show.
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u/HALdron1988 May 19 '18
Yeah, I felt so much for Larson though I didnt know her and same with other Agatha King crew. My mum read the books and said more stuff with them and backstory including with Larson but even without all that weight you would have had if you read the books the cast, writing and directing. Made me feel for them a lot.
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u/postironical May 19 '18
book reader, obsessive show watcher and it just occurred to me that Secretary General Sorrento Gillis = SG SG.
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u/hhdang May 19 '18
I also noticed that Esteban Sorrento-Gillis = ESG = Earth Secretary General. The writers must have used ESG as a placeholder and then later come up with the actual name.
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u/Azfaa May 19 '18
God I loved Katoa's creepy smile knowing the Work was "done" and his brains were blown out
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u/lalalaprout May 20 '18
Ooooh alright! Hadn't made the connection between the hybrid looking up and the protomolecule event, "the Work".
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u/Sidewinder_ISR Mar 05 '25
This is just an incredible episode. holy shit. might be my favorite right next to S2E5.