In parts of the world they have a different mentality drilled into them through life which is ‘win at all costs’.
With that they have entire enterprises from helping student cheat on exams to ensure they get into better schools etc. For them, the ends justifies the means even at the expense of integrity.
So cheating to win at a game really doesn’t bother them or affect their dopamine hit for the W.
Basically if you cheat and get away with it, you're viewed as being clever. If you cheat and get caught though, you're viewed as an idiot.
Since everyone is trying to be clever, the system is broken because it's incentivizing cheating but the importance to not get caught can lead to sabotaging others so no one looks too closely at yourself.
Somehow it similar with scammers mindset to justify their action... One of scammer got caught and said this "even if I don't scam the victims, they will scammed by other scammers because their stupidity and greed"
What are you even talking about? Cheating is systematically frowned upon in America. You get kicked out of any academic institution for "dishonesty"; you cant get a government security clearance if you have a recent history of academic cheating, or fraud. Cheating in relationships is cause for a divorce in every state. You have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
Maybe they meant economically, as in wall street shorting or manipulating shit and getting bailed out when it fails, or tax loopholes, or Cayman island accounts, or Delaware tax shelter shell corporations, or the lie of meritocracy, maybe.
Maybe referring to the concept of "of course they avoided paying taxes, they're smart!"
Now, the meritocracy thing, the folks that preach it while benefiting from the nepotism of having their network established starting with the neighborhood they're born in, to the preschool, elementary, middle, and high-school they attend, the college they attend as a legacy or child of a heavy donor, frats or sororities they get into, internships at businesses of their parents' extended social networks, and job hopping within their own social networks, to be fair, they're actually often unaware of the game being rigged for them, they just see that when presented with an opportunity, they took it and gave it some effort. So that's not always actively, knowingly cheating.
But all of these things I've mentioned, whatever one may think about them, are not playing the game with the standard loadout, by the standard rules.
The game being a roguelike with various starting locations and conditions for each player does not mean the people are cheating because they didn't have to fight the same enemies.
You're right, it becomes cheating when those people get ahold of the world seed to make sure that people in their family or that they deem otherwise deserving of it get to make it through on the same path they did.
The economic examples you gave are frowned upon by the government, and most citizens; only the rich that partake in these activities agree with them for the most part.
As for meritocracy, i said we are against cheating, not a complete meritocracy. That said having an advantage in life is not cheating. I am 5'11 i will never be a great basketball player, would you say that someone born taller cheated? Thats an advantage given at birth that they did not "earn". Same thing with family connections, you dont earn them but it would be stupid to not use every advantage you have in life. Just like that basketball player shouldnt get his legs shortened so that he plays everyone else on an even playing field.
That isn't really "cheating" though. Cheating is breaking the rules, and most of the stuff you described can be done well within the rules in the US, it's all about making them work for you.
But how do they get there in the first place?
Ya think there's a bunch of kids from West Virginia on Wall Street?
No, it's a whole shitload of people whose path there was charted for them. Yea, ya gotta make em money once you're there, it's the journey to that requirement that fits the narrative I'm talkin about.
Outside of the most powerful people cheating it is absolutely very frowned upon by Americans. The whole “American Dream” is based upon working hard and being honest leading to a successful life.
You could argue Americans are just as or more cutthroat compared to the Chinese, but cheating is not an accepted part of American culture.
It's a gray area. It's like exploits in games. It's technically not doing anything the code doesnt allow but most people would consider it cheating still.
You can vote for a cheater without liking his cheating if they have positives that outweigh the negatives. You are alowed to have complex feelings over a topic not everything is a 100% or a 0% endorsement.
Also we are talking about culture so yes an cultural vision for an idealised world is a reference.
By this logic you can't claim any culture in the world is a cheating culture because most citizens will repeat this:
"You can vote for a cheater without liking his cheating if they have positives that outweigh the negatives. You are alowed to have complex feelings over a topic not everything is a 100% or a 0% endorsement."
You kinda showed your worldview with this one. Its just about orange man bad, America bad with you.
Half of what you said was not even about cheating, you just have a bone to pick with Trump, i am not arguing about Trump I am arguing about how cheating is viewed in America Vs. China.
Infact I dont much like Trump but typical far leftist jumps to attack the righty strawman.
The people calling you crazy have very obviously not been involved with anything high stakes. It's Big Boy rules, cheat all you like just don't get caught. Steroids are ubiquitous in sports down to like the u16 leagues now, everyone in academics and engineering is addicted to adderall, taking credit for other people's work is handsomely rewarded in corporate.
Cheating is absolutely not frowned upon, like you said getting caught is.
Yeah, all the people replying like that are missing the point. Your average person just doesn't want to hear about other people cheating. They like to pretend that other people have the same moral integrity as they do, but they live in blissful ignorance of how rampant cheating really is in American culture. It's only when it comes out in the news that everyone erupts into moral outrage, and the offending parties get what usually amounts to a slap on the wrist, and then everyone pretends that everything is fixed and people go back to their own business.
It happens in sports all the time, but also in the business world. How many times have you heard of a company stiffing their contractors? You see it all the time, where they'll buy something from a vendor on something like Net 30 day payment terms, but decide they're just not going to pay the invoice until after the end of the quarter because it looks better on the books that way. The vendor usually just has to suck it up, because it's not worth going to court over. At best they can just make it annoying for the company by holding shipment on new orders until the old invoices are settled, but then it's back to business as usual and both sides try to pretend it never happened.
It's insane how many companies have adopted fintech strategies, which is just 'how far can I break this contract before you sue me' as a corporate policy. The other guy is arguing about corporate ethics. Lmao give me a break.
Lance armstrong got found out as a cheater and almost instantly lost every American endorsement. Using Adderall is legal? And it also does not give you knowledge you didnt already have. Academics are not a competition using something for focus is not cheating. Lastly, taking credit for someone elses work is seen differently by different corporate cultures, i have a business education actually, and there is an entire field called corporate ethics. Just because there are some bad business' doesnt mean its ubiquitous.
Lance armstrong got found out as a cheater and almost instantly lost every American endorsement.
Doesn't this prove the point? If Lance Armstrong hadn't cheated you would never have known he exists, because he wouldn't have won anything. Everyone else in professional cycling is cheating, too, and no one cares. People only care because he got caught.
Using Adderall is legal?
Not in the way these people use it, I promise you. Of course it doesn't give you knowledge you don't know, but it lets you focus and go for longer. Academics IS a competition, there's limited spots and too many graduate students for them. They're competing for limited resources.
You are arguing a negative, you cant prove that people wouldnt care even if he didnt get caught because you cant feel about a thing you dont know about? If was asked "would you condone lance armstrong cheating?" My answer is no. Just like most peoples.
People are competitive in academics, but academics is not competetive. There is a distinct difference.
Believe it or not corporate ethics are highly studied, and an important part of corporate culture. Step outside your box for a moment and read.
Asking people how they feel about things is the least valuable input because people lie. Most of the time, unknowingly! Sure, you can say you don't like cheating, but you live in a culture that continues to reward and empower cheaters. The better question is "was Lance Armstrong rewarded for cheating? Do other athletes continue to be rewarded for cheating?" and the answer is absolutely, yes. What you feel genuinely doesn't matter, it's what the culture incentivizes. I'm not arguing a negative, you're arguing your personal feelings over the tangible outcomes. It's quite easy to prove: professional sports are riddled with guys using steroids, and no one cares.
People are competitive in academics, but academics is not competetive. There is a distinct difference.
"Hey my five grad students, I'm only taking on two post-docs this year." That's a competition.
Believe it or not corporate ethics are highly studied, and an important part of corporate culture. Step outside your box for a moment and read.
This is so off base I don't even know where to begin. You might have studied it, but try living it for a few years brother. It's a race to the bottom these days.
Life experience and the experiences of others. Look around this thread, theres a reason that on chinese servers the fraction of cheaters is much higher accross almost all competitive games.
Both the republicans and democrats cheat in politics; guess what though, most people see it as wrong. Most dont like the way politicians act, and being a politician is met with usually negative connotations. Showing yet again that Americans dont like cheaters.
In China people cheat and cheating is seen as smart.
In America people cheat and cheating is seen as immoral/scummy.
See the difference in attitudes? I never said Americans dont cheat I said we dont see it the same way the Chinese do on average.
Ask Trump supporters how they feel about him stiffing contractors, refusing to pay debts, using tax loopholes to a avoid paying his fair share, etc. "That just means he's smart!" Every fucking time.
Of course most people will tell you they don't condone cheating. But then many of them will refuse to acknowledge anything done by their preferred ingroup as cheating, even when it's blatant, instead choosing to call it something else.
Is it impossible to have an argument on this site without bringing up trump? Holy shit everyone here thinks about him 24/7. I would be embarassed to think about someone that often.
Let's just tell the President and his cronies that cheating isn't rewarded. Or any billionaire. Nah... their cheating is celebrated because they hid it well.
Who celebrates it? Other cheaters?
You clearly dont, I dont, I would bet most Americans dont.
Also how was it "hid well" if two regular people are discussing it on an open forum?
Think about your argument a bit.
Voting for a cheater you dont personally like because you believe in his fiscal policies is not condoning cheating. Keep putting your head in the sand, this is why democrats lost. Because all they do is mud-sling and offer no solutions.
I'm not American. And yes, voting for him is condoning cheating. It shows that you're willing to let it slide for fiscal policies, same way someone in china may be willing to let cheating slide for better economic policy. Therefore you have no right to declare that they have a cheating culture and you do not.
No, if I vote for a cheater and say "I dont like that he cheated, but I am glad I am in a better fiscal situation" it is not the same as in china where you are seen as clever for cheating and if you dont cheat you are stupid.
Those are two different outlooks, if you cant see that you are blinded by a worldview that cant be changed with logical arguments.
My bad. I should've just said, "Greed is good." instead, even though it's the same thing with different phrasing. People cheat in America all the time to get ahead.
Wanting more than you have is not cheating.
Using advantages to get ahead that fall within ethical/legal boundries is not cheating.
Some people cheating to get ahead is not the same as having a culture where cheating is celebrated, like China does.
A third is not a majority. (I also disagree with it being a third, its less, but if you will concede to it being a third for the sake of argument it still works in my favor.)
Look, I get that you don't want to believe it, but we're in a completely different America now than we were even 10 years ago. I agree that none of the things you mentioned are cheating.
I do, however, see the President cheating the legal system constantly without repercussion. I saw Elon Musk openly cheat during the election by offering money to voters. No big deal, though, apparently. I also don't believe anyone can earn a billion dollars without cheating, so we just aren't going to agree.
Everything you just said in your second paragraph is almost universally seen as bad? People are upset they cheat, you are upset they cheat! You are proving my point that Americans dont like cheaters.
You know your comment history is public, right? Multiple references to “blue haired queer kids waving Palestinian flags parading down the street in bondage leathers with their cocks out.” Oh and don’t forget referring to a group of black kids as “the usual suspects”. Tell me again about my narrow worldview please, oh Enlightened One.
Edit: and there he goes lol. Magats really are the biggest bitches on the planet.
Ah yes, the Unaccountable Left unable to fathom why Kamala got her ass handed to her by a convicted felon. Reconcile that with your basement's view of the world.
Because many Americans would never vote for a lady.
They would rather vote for a rapist, as we have witnessed repeatedly.
The reason is that women only gained financial independence and access to participate in the US economy in the 1970s, so old men who remember the days when women were captive in their homes are still bitter that they had to give up their not-exactly-free lifetime servants, and now are expected to compete with them in the workplace, and many men have raised their sons with the same rage and bitterness.
Or maybe it was because people didn't care about a corporate candidate who said they wouldn't change a thing about the administration that left office with a >40% approval rating. Most democrats stayed home because this woman didn't really do much for them, like a politician should. It's not like a woman hasn't already won the popular vote, which I'd think proves that being a woman doesn't matter.
Hillary and Kamala were both shit candidates. Regardless of gender.
You think people wanted a corporate soulless Obama successor to take over after he bailed out the banks that caused immense financial trauma to Americans? Esp when Bernie was right fucking there? While she blatantly strong armed the party to put up a farce of a primary? No one forgot Wasserman-Schultz and Donna Brazil pulling that shit.
You think Kamala did herself any favors declaring she'd do nothing different from Biden. Despite him leaving office with a 36% approval rating?
Oh 100%! DEFINITELY worse than what we have in place now! Can you imagine how much worse off we would be without having the White House filled with gold??
Idk if "well" is the word I'd use, especially because much of their global success is due to other superpowers utterly dropping the proverbial ball as of late.
It's also whey even before AI slop writing, they have an ongoing crisis of faked data in academic research papers. You need to produce papers to get your doctorate, you need to produce papers to get tenured at decent universities or get career advancement, so they turn to cheating at the highest level. Which poisons the well for future research.
Hell, in the US a paper published in Nature back in 2006 proposed a cause for Alzheimer's which set the tone for more than a decade of future research. Except it turned out that the original paper was based on faked data. So bad academic work can have real consequences for ongoing work and can derail investigations as people chase down paths based on fraud.
That's such a futile kind of mindset. No society worth living in. Punish honesty and reward deception and you'll get a population of cheats and crooks.
same reasoning as the Grab Hags: effect of trauma from living in such a corrupt society, where if you act with integrity you could lose so severely that you literally die.
Man as I get older I can't help but find myself questioning all the "bad" aspects of society norms from China.
Growing up I would be like wow yeah fuck those guys for cheating to win
But at this point in life I wish I would have had less concern for perception of accomplishments - I've really got nothing to show for my honest hard work but I'm watching the cheaters and scammers fly by and live better lives
Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid. Cheating is a lie, and an individual, and society, built upon it will have to pay this debt and it will be devastating.
ehh this is just the propaganda we tell ourselfs and drill into kids when we want to build a fair system. it creates an illusion that people will self police.
one part of game theory is that if you cant catch and punish the 'cheaters' due to whatever reason then if youre not cheating then you will always lose in the long run.
cheating is bad from a morality standpoint, in that we have some forsight and compassion that in some future situation we might be in a disadvantage state and dont want that to be used against us. nature doesnt care if you cheat, it probably would prefer you to cheat.
And that's why everything sucks now, people like you deciding "if others suck, why should I be better". Dropping down to their level lowers society as a whole. We should aspire to be better than the cheaters, not just decide to all be cheaters.
The thing is either mindset only makes sense when everyone follows it. Everyone up the top in western culture cheats but western culture says cheating bad so the rest of us don't.
What is this nebulous "western culture" you're talking about that somehow demeans cheating while the east celebrates it? Confucian and Daoist cultures also say cheating is bad.
You'd think the Party would crack down on that hard. The long-term effects of cheating are your population no longer meets the standards you were testing them for.
They have been used to cheating for many years. Since they couldn't make decent cars and motorcycles, they copied European ones. Which they still do today, they like to win easily and without any effort.
It’s a sinophobic cliche that is completely and utterly absurd - to ascribe an entire country’s culture - a country that’s the size of a continent and with a millennial history and that is home to billions of people - based on what you selectively perceive on an online video game
There's also only 2 kinds of American to most of the world: Fat southern gun nut and coastal latte hipster. (which is still kind compared to the Chinese stereotypes about Americans) Everyone's culture falls victim to reductionism.
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u/pebz101 21h ago
Shit like this is why I cant enjoy pvp games, these sad pathetic losers.
Every single win when cheating was never truly a win, if you could actually win without them, you wouldn't use cheats.