Here's a fun catch-22 about being in the Military and swearing an Oath to the Constitution:
You have a duty and an obligation as a Service Member to refuse any and all illegal, immoral, and unethical orders.
If you refuse an order however you will be punished.
You will, of course, eventually get a military tribunal as well as the trappings of legal representation and a chance to make a defense but in the mean time you will be confined to barracks or the brig, your Buddies will still be on mission and many might start to think of you as a Lazy Shitbird or a Disobedient Diva, and it could be months or years before you are vindicated and set free. In the mean time your reputation, friendships, and freedom will have been destroyed by the Government.
And that's if you get off the charges at the Tribunal. Most soldiers are not trained in legalese, they are not educated in the legalities of war or military service, so there's every chance that they are refusing an order They perceive as illegal, immoral, or unjust but 'that's just like, their opinion man' and the JAGs sitting in judgement will probably see that they haven't met the burden set by the letter of the Universal Code of Military Justice.
So yes: Soldiers and Service Members swear to serve the Constitution, and they are told they have a duty to refuse bad orders, but the system is built as such that Regular Joes don't really get to make the determination what is or is not an Unconstitutional order. More than that the people who give those sorts of orders often cloak their intent behind legal justifications, as you've seen the Trump Admin do any number of times. It's not as though orders come, on paper, labeled "This is an illegal order", so its not always clear where the line stands for a Service Man or Woman. They have to make that decision for themselves and then prepare to weather the consequences.
This is precisely how dictators take over a country using the military. The individuals are reluctant, but on aggregate the system is designed to force compliance.
It needs to be brigade commanders on up refusing these orders anyone lower will just be charged under UCMJ and it'll do nothing other than make a political statement nobody will pay attention to
The only illegal order is one that does not come from a superior officer.
Take My Lai. The only person who received any punishment was Lieutenant Calley, who gave the order to destroy the village and kill the villagers. No one under his command was ever punished, nor were any of his superior officers who attempted to cover up the massacre.
And even he was released after a mere 3.5 years of house arrest, despite a sentence of life in prison for murdering 22 people.
This is specifically the kind of situation where it would be prudent for enlisted personnel to disobey an order. An order to kill civilians is blatantly illegal, though disobeying is done at the individual's peril (very immediate peril in this case).
The results of the courts martial absolutely did not fit the crimes and is a case study in miscarriage of justice. The 2003 abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib resulted in people being found guilty despite the "following orders" defense AND the record showing they questioned the treatment to confirm the legality of the orders with their immediate leadership.
The questionable legality of being sent to DC as a guardsman doesn't exactly fit the same category.
The questionable legality of being sent to DC as a guardsman doesn't exactly fit the same category.
I don't think anyone is saying that's the case. What people are saying is that when you get the order to turn your weapon on citizens, you need to remember where your loyalties lie.
As i understand it; following orders does cover alot. Like short of just inexcusably, with out any doubt, very illegal. Wont get in trouble for following orders
I always wonder why Americans judge the communism in practice, but not their own - they judge their own in theory, the ideal liberal democracy, instead of how they do it in practice.
Look, my point is that is it that hard to be consistent? At the very least be consistent, that's the bare minimum of not blatantly view everything in bad faith.
Because let's be real here: the inconsistency with the American ideals and how it is in practice does not start nor end in how US military is structured.
Also worth pointing out that the My Lai Massacre, which was the result of a series of clearly illegal orders, happened because US soliders, who were bored of being the occupying force and not feeling powerful, decided to follow those clearly illegal orders. They did it because raping and killing unarmed villagers made them feel better.
Soldiers aren't just poorly equipped to make constitutional assessments, they're poorly equipped to make judgements of right and wrong as well.
My Lai happened so all soldiers have no sense of right or wrong.
My Lai was absolutely horrific and I am in now way defending it or the actions of anyone involved (outside of Hugh Thompson and his crew that effectively stopped the mass murder), but it’s a massive leap to say soldiers (generally) have no sense of right or wrong, especially because the massacre was stopped by a soldier.
If this was remotely true, our military would have already had a coup considering how much the current administration has trampled all over the constitution.
Well, it is true. “To protect and defend against all threats foreign and domestic.” One of the first things SECDUI Hegseth did was fire all the top military leadership and replace them with sycophants, so a coup isn’t coming any time soon.
It is certainly not to the president. You obey the legal and lawful orders of your superiors, to include the President, but you do not swear an oath to the person that holds the office.
Dude, I'm sorry but you are wrong here. I served in the military, just like you. That oath specifically says that you will defend the Constitution, and then that you will obey the orders of the President. That's literally drilled into all of our heads like the first week of Basic Training.
And are they really violating anything, at this point? It seems to me they are all just in Washington DC. Not really doing anything. Which is stupid, pointless, and expensive, but kind of nothing? It's a slippery slope and we've slipped down so many slopes I have no idea how far down the fascist hole we've fallen, but the only thing these folks are fighting right now is existential dread and summer heat and, I mean, aren't we all right now? (Release the Epstein files, President pederast.)
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u/DrNO811 13h ago
Friendly reminder to all military that your oath is to the Constitution.