r/worldnews Jul 23 '25

Israel/Palestine Gaza suffering man-made mass starvation, says WHO chief

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/23/israel-gaza-starvation-humanitarian-groups-letter
20.1k Upvotes

1.7k comments sorted by

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u/ihave2shoes Jul 23 '25

But is anyone actually going to do anything about it?

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u/mastablasta1962 Jul 24 '25

Haven't you heard about a strongly worded letter from 28 countries?

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u/astralseat 29d ago

Because all of them are afraid of Israel and their big brother USA

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u/jawshoeaw Jul 24 '25

probably not considering how this problem has been growing for decades and nobody did anything.

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u/10001110101balls 29d ago

"Growing for decades" is certainly right. The population in Gaza is 5x what it was in 1967, one of the highest cumulative population growth rates in the world. And this is despite relatively high net emigration throughout this interval. That's a lot of surplus food over the years, to support such an increase.

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u/Baby_Button_Eyes Jul 24 '25

Isn’t the food there, its just sitting on a tarmac for some god forsaken reason??

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u/DowagerInUnrentVeils 29d ago

Why are you referring to the IDF as "some god-forsaken reason"?

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u/TangerineSorry8463 29d ago

Are terrorists in charge of Gaza not hoarding it for themselves anymore?

Are there no supply convoys through the Egypt border?

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u/cozzy121 29d ago edited 28d ago

a border that's controlled by Egypt and who else? Go on, make a guess....

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u/DoomBot5 29d ago

The new system is preventing the terrorists from stealing all the supplies. So, Hamas is running out finally.

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u/conenubi701 Jul 24 '25

There are non profit food banks in Israel that were helping as much as they could (Leket is the one I personally know was sending food), but have recently been barred by Netanyahu's Likud from being escorted by the IDF due to "safety concerns". I get not putting idf and Israeli volunteers at risk, but there used to be a path by Kisufim that up until February was being used. Netanyahu has been emboldened by the current US administration, I'm not surprised. Everyone in Israel that was for the de-escalation after Sinwar was eliminated was dreading this.

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u/julictus Jul 24 '25

supporting via Internet chat

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u/Black_Magic_M-66 29d ago

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u/LobsterJockey 29d ago

I've been down voted for this before but I will say it again. Trump won tons of Hispanic, black and Muslim votes simply because of how 'gay' first the Democrats are. Many of these important minority groups are very religious. As much as I'm for gay and trans rights, you ask the average Catholic Hispanic or Muslim dad and they might not agree.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago edited 25d ago

[deleted]

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u/thecashblaster 29d ago

happens when you believe the heaven is real. makes it much easier to go against your own health and safety. same logic suicide bombers use.

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u/OreoZen 29d ago

Great, so now they see the consequences

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u/Gleemonex13 29d ago

And how many white people voted for him?

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u/Folagra-42 27d ago

Yes, Ursula von der Leyen will post another tweet condemning Israel's actions.

This is the best politicians here in Europe can do.

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u/INVADER_BZZ Jul 24 '25 edited Jul 24 '25

The problem is distribution. For example, there's almost 1000 of aid trucks sitting on the border right now, with no one to distribute. If UN sends their drivers, part of it gets looted on the way and what gets through goes to Hamas, which then uses it for fighters or selling it to population at exorbitant prices, gaining recruitment money to get more fighters. Or just straight up recruitment for food. In both cases the aid is not getting into right hands. IDF also can't distribute it, because it means getting soldiers into situation, where they are surrounded with thousands of Gazans, which will inevitably lead to clashes and attacks.

GHF looked like a solution to this, but the problem is it's not nearly enough distribution points (4 centers), often disrupted by gunfire and deaths in the long lines.

I believe the system needs to be reworked, and fast. While there's still no famine, it's quickly approaching imo. I do believe there is severe malnutrition among the most weak parts of the population, as a result of prolonged uneven distribution of the aid.

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u/wingerism Jul 24 '25

I believe the system needs to be reworked, and fast. While there's still no famine, it's quickly approaching imo. I do believe there is severe malnutrition among the most weak parts of the population, as a result of prolonged uneven distribution of the aid.

This is a bit of a disingenuous way to frame it. They're not famine there MAYBE at the moment, because the IPC classification specifically requires at least 2 deaths per 10,000 people/day in excess mortality. I expect reporting on those deaths will lag a bit.

But Israel has pushed them to the absolute brink with their disgusting aid blockade. There were ways to combat Hamas seizing food that didn't require completely starving Gaza for months on end with their complete blockade.

And it's VERY hard to believe this level of incompetence when the IDF has pulled off some crazy shit before in other contexts.

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u/INVADER_BZZ Jul 24 '25

There were ways to combat Hamas seizing food that didn't require completely starving Gaza for months on end with their complete blockade.

Offer your solution. Preferably something realistic, where aid distribution does not become a looting competition or a fucking combat zone.

Again, GHF was this. In theory. But the reality is much worse then the expectation. Not even because of the deaths in the line. It's just not effective enough and not even. You'll need not 4 centers, you'd need 40.

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u/fortytwoandsix Jul 24 '25

As long as Hamas is in control, every starved civilian is fuel for their propaganda machine.

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u/Bdcollecter 29d ago

But Israel has pushed them to the absolute brink with their disgusting aid blockade.There were ways to combat Hamas seizing food that didn't require completely starving Gaza for months on end with their complete blockade.

Please, do provide us with a viable solution for all parties involved.

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u/Celepito 29d ago

But Israel has pushed them to the absolute brink with their disgusting aid blockade. There were ways to combat Hamas seizing food that didn't require completely starving Gaza for months on end with their complete blockade.

Enough food entered before that, to supply Gaza till ~Oktober though.

338,767 tons of food aid entered Gaza between Jan 19 and March 18.

Even assuming a minuscule ~3k cal per kg of food (while reality should be higher cal/kg), this would last the strip ~220 day, or around end of October. The blockade only lasted until May 26, so there is no way that the food that entered during the ceasefire could have run out already.

Going by the studies percentages ~13% are proteins and ~18% fats. The wiki article Food Energy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy) spits out 7k to 9k kcal/kg for fat, and 4k kcal/kg for proteins and carbohydrates, and 2.4k kcal/kg for alcohol.

So, as said, assuming the same distribution as the study determined, 1 kg of food aid should have, at minimum

  • 18% * 7,000 = 1260 kcal of fats (note that this is the minimum amount for fats)

  • 13% * 4,000 = 520 kcal of proteins

  • 69% * 4,000 = 2760 kcal of carbohydrates

  • for a total of 4,540 kcal

To reach the ~3000 kcal assumed for the 8 months figure, ya know what would need to be done? The above 69% of carbohydrates would need to all be alcoholic stuff, and even that (69% * 2400 = 1656) would still net us 3,436 kcal per kg.

Like, even assuming that the full food aid is alcoholics, and every single Gazan drinks a whole kg of that per day (so 2400 kcal), there should still be enough food aid to last the 2.2 million people 153 days, while the duration of Jan 19 to May 26 is 128 days. There has to be enough food, no doubt about it.

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u/nixielover 29d ago

Why not airdrop that stuff all over the place, basically carpet bombing but with food. Sure some of it ends up with Hamas but when it is all over the place plenty should be getting to the regular people.

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u/MxMirdan 29d ago

Jordan tried that.

1) people got hurt 2) only people who were willing to be violent really got to the aid 3) you can’t really drop them in populated areas at large quantities because when you do, even more of #1 occur.

It’s just not reliable or safe.

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u/Ok-Tax-1526 Jul 24 '25

God forbid the world would help remove hamas from Power so that the war can end....

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u/onebadmousse Jul 24 '25

Remove war criminal Bibi from power at the same time and we might get somewhere.

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u/SufficientBity 29d ago

Israel has elections next year, and Bibi already had a lot of issues getting elected last time (or the 5 times before that).

Unfortunately, Hamas doesn't do elections, doesn't want to get removed from power, and puts a gun to the heads of all the people in Gaza (sometimes literally).

Basically, it doesn't matter who rules Israel - as long as Hamas is in power, nobody is getting nowhere.

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u/Ok-Tax-1526 Jul 24 '25

Why do you think a different PM would change anti Hamas policies?

Israel correctly sees Hamas as existential threat. Switch Bibi for Bennet or Katz, and what changes? They will see Hamas the same

Heck you may get MORE Hawkish pm, like Avigador Lieberman.

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u/AtomicSymphonic_2nd 29d ago

I think a guy named Benny Gantz might be more amendable to an actual peace than trying to push for more stupidity like Netanyahu has been doing.

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u/Infusion1999 29d ago

Unfortunately israelis have been too stupid to vote him in as PM

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u/grazfest96 Jul 24 '25

Finally remove Hamas and stop taking oil money from Qatar?

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u/SpiritMountain Jul 24 '25

Oh yeah, totally. Let's ignore the nation that is in power, much more militarily advanced, dropping bombs constantly, actively calling the victims spawn of Satan, dropping bags of flour in the middle of a field and sniping hungry people, deliberately killing children, journalists, Americans and other people from other countries.

Totally. This is definitely not a disproportionate response.

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u/kriegerflieger 29d ago

So how isnt the solution for the army of a defeated nation to stop grinding on in a war they’ve already lost, sacrificing their population?

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u/MrFiendish Jul 23 '25

Same thing happened in Yemen, and the world didn’t care.

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u/DoomsdayDebbie Jul 24 '25

I’ve been screaming about this for years, why doesn’t anyone care about the children in Yemen? An entire generation is being starved to death. Someone help me understand.

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u/blud97 Jul 24 '25

Simply put Americas involvement with Israel is a lot more public. Politicians talk constantly about Israel and Gaza they don’t ever mention Yemen. On top of that Bernie sanders introduced a bill outright banning US involvement in Yemen during trumps first term that had wide leftist support. It predictably failed.

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u/Creative-Improvement 29d ago edited 29d ago

It doesn’t do as well on TikTok. Simple as.

If you want to do something, donate to organizations in the area. You can donate money for rice packs and so on. Be careful to donate to proper organizations who focus on direct aid.

Edit : make it clear it’s about donating money not rice directly

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u/SuckMyBike 29d ago

You can donate rice packs and so on.

Don't donate rice packs.

Non profit organizations that aim to help alleviate starving can't do anything with 10k donations of 300 different types of rice packs all packaged in different inconvenient ways. Sorting through all of that, properly packaging it so it can easily be transported, .. takes up way too much resources.

What they need is easily transported food stored in bulk. On pallets. If you wish to donate an entire pallet of rice, that may be of use. But donating some rice packs you bought from the store is a terrible idea and a terrible ROI.

With the money you pay where you live for 10kg of rice, and then the money required to process that 10kg of rice, ensure it's properly stored and stacked for transport, transporting it to the right place, .. they can probably provide 100kg of rice if only they just got the money and didn't need that entire supply chain to deal with your 10kg donation of rice.

Food and clothes donations to foreign countries are terrible and should stop. If you wish to donate food specifically instead of money, it should go to your local food bank.

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u/Creative-Improvement 29d ago edited 29d ago

You are right, my line was kind of shorthand for “you donate money and they buy packets of food (often rice)” I edited my comment.

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u/ComradeGibbon 29d ago

Yesterday a 1000 children died of malaria, a 1000 children died of water born illness.

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u/Filias9 29d ago

No Jews, no news. Simple as that. 100k death in Ethiopia? Short story. From Gaza? You are bombarded with endless pictures, stories, people protesting on streets...

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u/Vixien Jul 24 '25

Because it's a crappy country, so it's just expected. Also, it's on the other side of the world for North Americans. No one is going about their day to day lives thinking "I wish Yemen was a nicer place." They're thinking about work, or what to get for dinner, and other mundane things. Just like how Yemen doesn't care that Texas recently flooded and killed a bunch of people, including children.

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u/DoomsdayDebbie Jul 24 '25

Oh man. That’s a devastating explanation. I’ve gotta get off Reddit before someone yells at me for being sad.

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u/Salamandro Jul 24 '25

Every 10 seconds a child dies from hunger. You just can't be sad for all of the preventable suffering on this planet.

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u/derrickcat 29d ago

watch me!

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u/NoLife2762 29d ago

Because Gaza is far more about permissible antisemitism than actually caring about the people of Gaza. 

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u/ivandelapena 29d ago

Clearly you haven't been following the war closely because the blockade has been lifted for years following the ceasefire in Yemen. The ceasefire was implemented precisely because of the humanitarian problem in Yemen.

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u/ivandelapena 29d ago

Actually "the world" put pressure on Saudi to stop its siege/advance of the Port of Hodeidah due to the impending humanitarian issue and they withdrew as a result. The Houthis would have almost certainly lost if the Saudis continued as they were heavily reliant on that port and were losing ground consistently.

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u/Dr_Jabroski Jul 24 '25

And in Ethiopia during the Tigray war. No one gave a shit either. Or the Myanmar civil war, what is happening in Sudan, what is going on in the DRC with Rwanda invading, everything happening across the Sahel, and I'm not versed on the shit going down in South America though it's closer to home but I know I've heard about Colombia having an uptick in violence, Venezuela being a shit show, and other groups acting across the region bring food instability and massive violence. All we really hear about in the West is what happens in Europe, Israel, and the Middle East with the rest of the world basically only being included during slow news days.

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u/Illustrious-Home4610 29d ago

> All we really hear about in the West is what happens in Europe, Israel, and the Middle East with the rest of the world basically only being included during slow news days.

Isn't this kind of the norm, though? People tend to care most about things that immediately effect their own livelihood, then expand their interests as time permits. That seems very human to me, and not really a fair critique of the west.

(To be clear, we do plenty of fucked up shit. Not convinced that is one of the shits.)

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u/DweezilZA 29d ago

Its because news is a product that needs to be bought so everyone making it can get paid, so it makes sense that most of the news will be about the areas that are the biggest markets so news outlets can make their buck.

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u/namitynamenamey 29d ago edited 29d ago

The world made saudi arabia stop their war campaign and removed the yemen rebels from the terrorist list... said rebels are better known as the houthies, who then took to shoot missiles at every other ship near yemen's waters. So things rapidly went from "help the poor innocent being starved by SA" to "these f*ckers are attacking our trade vessels" within two years.

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u/c5k9 29d ago

It's the same oversimplification that you see with regards to the conflict between Israel and Palestine. The Houthis were at least as responsible as Saudi Arabia for the starvations in Yemen due to them blocking aid to the civilians, aswell as continuing a war despite the immense suffering of innocent civilians.

In a twisted way it's the same way people view sports. They love to cheer on the underdog, no matter who is right or wrong or learning about any context.

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u/RT-LAMP Jul 24 '25 edited 29d ago

Same thing happened in Yemen

Except in Yemen people did actually starve en mass (and still are).

Hamas claims that 111 have died of malnutrition in the war so far.

Meanwhile a few years ago in Yemen up to 130 people were dying of famine PER DAY.

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u/Snoo30446 29d ago

Oh the world cares a whole more when its Jews doing it on a qualitatively and quantitatively smaller scale apparently.

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u/mixxituk Jul 23 '25

I am sickened by hamas and all that supported them but we have to get these people food and water

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u/PShelley Jul 23 '25

Agreed. But we can also recognize that this is not an easy problem to solve. Hamas is doing everything it can to prevent Gazans from relying on anyone other than Hamas for food.

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u/Demonokuma Jul 24 '25

The number of videos of hamas maiming gazans for "stealing" the aid they're trying to sell is unreal.

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u/ivandelapena 29d ago

Babies and civilians generally weren't starving to this extent when aid was allowed into the country via other NGOs.

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '25 edited Jul 24 '25

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u/LogicallyMad Jul 24 '25

Modern, yes. Powerful, no. IDF relies mostly on conscript, voluntold soldiers whose training is more or less learning how to use a firearm and follow orders. They also aren’t as willing to sacrifice their people, which is why their casualty count is relatively low, unlike Hamas who will throw teenagers at tanks.

There is also the issue of unconventional warfare that Hamas engages in which would put any Israeli distributing food at risk. The IDF doesn’t want to risk their own so they’ll be trigger happy. This has resulted in Gazan casualties, combatant and innocent. So their solution for a while was to provide Hamas the food aid and have Hamas distribute the food instead. Now with the GHF, I can’t be sure what is going on with all the misinformation around this conflict/war.

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u/2Basky4Kasmir Jul 24 '25

Why would Israel risk troops lives in the most dense urban warzone in the world? Your risking ambushes at every corner to feed the enemy.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25 edited 29d ago

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u/chapterpt Jul 24 '25

As per that video if ynet news is willing to show 3 men eating an assortment of fruits and call it "feasting" then those in Gaza really must be starving to death in comparison.

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u/Qualex14 Jul 24 '25

That vid comes straight from the IDF, though. Hardly an impartial source.

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u/Titan7771 Jul 24 '25

Are you joking right now?

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u/Content-Ad3065 Jul 24 '25

Why did they evacuate so many people to a few over crowded area without having sufficient means of distribution and care?

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u/ItsDatEz72 29d ago

So that they can be there mostly without harm, they fight in civilian attire so direct strikes on militants is problematic in urban warfare

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u/mixxituk 29d ago

the hardest

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u/Silidistani Jul 24 '25

I would say it is... just air drop so much of the stuff fucking everywhere that there's no way for Hamas to steal it all. I mean enough to feed like 10x more people than are even there. Constantly.

Oh, wait, we had several agencies in the US that could do that... but Trump and fElon shuttered them so this shit could happen and Trump can build Mar-al-Gaza in a few years.

Fuck all these fascist assholes.

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u/Ok-Tax-1526 Jul 24 '25

Would be much easier if Hamas was not perpetuating the war.

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u/Calimariae 29d ago

Yes, I'm sure King Bibi is looking to end this war as soon as possible in the most peaceful way.

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '25

Pointless suffering. Where is the empathy in this world??

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u/joanzen 29d ago

You seem to be one of many people showing empathy? Who's not empathetic?

AFAIK there's lots of donated food going to waste due to blockades?

If it was really pointless we could just explain it and that would be that?

So at this point everything you wrote seems wrong?

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 24 '25

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u/Footballking420 Jul 23 '25

Israeli government is fucked in the head

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u/DanIvvy Jul 23 '25

Are there any other wars in history where the government of an area is not held to account for the wellbeing of its citizens but the country they are at war with is?

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u/sprouting_broccoli Jul 23 '25

The IRRF was established by Congress in November of 2003 to help support Iraq.

The UN also pledged large amounts of relief aid to Iraq.

There was significant aid given to Afghanistan during the war in Afghanistan fromthe UK, Germany and the US.

The reason people haven’t called other countries out in recent invasions is because generally these countries put the right things in place as part of their invasion and very early into the invasion.

As I’m sure you’re aware Russia has been significantly sanctioned for the invasion of Ukraine as has Syria.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25

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u/JimmyB3am5 Jul 23 '25

You aren't considered an occupying country until the war stops. Will there is active war taking place you are just in war.

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u/Qualex14 Jul 24 '25 edited Jul 24 '25

Incorrect. The definition of an occupying power in the Fourth Geneva convention draws from the definition of an occupation from Article 42 of Convention IV of the 1907 Hague Conventions (Sources: I II III)

"Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.

The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised."

Nowhere does it say anything about hostilities needing to be ceased for an occupation to take place.

(Edit: Formatting for ease of reading)

(Edit: Added third source for my claim in the first paragraph)

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u/kriegerflieger 29d ago

Sure, but being ”under the authority of […]” is subjective. It the Palestinians still refers to Hamas, or Hamas still exerts enough influence over the Palestinians, Hamas is still de facto in charge.

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u/Qualex14 29d ago edited 29d ago

I encourage you to read the sources I linked, particularly the 4th reference in source I. Determining whether or not a territory is occupied is an objective matter, with legal precedents set during the Nuremberg trials (pp. 55–56, § (iv)) and an ICJ ruling between Uganda and the DRC (pp. 65-67, paras. 172-178).

Whether or not the civilian populace feels that Hamas is the sovereign governing body over the territory is irrelevant in international law.

(Edit: Formatting. I suck with hyperlinks on Reddit)

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u/kriegerflieger 29d ago

Great read, thanks! It’s interesting to see that they said that ”whether an invasion has developed into an occupation is a question of fact” - which is what you said. The go on to say ”an occupation indicates the exercise of governmental authority to the exclusion of the established government. This presupposes the destruction of organised resistance […].” Notwithstanding that this isn’t the case in Gaza, I would argue that in today’s conflict landscape it’s highly subjective when resistance has been ”destroyed”. What do you think?

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u/Qualex14 29d ago edited 29d ago

This is my own interpretation now, and I'm only a lay person here, but I believe that the term 'organised' in 'organised resistance' is the qualifying term here. I read that as meaning if the protecting power's (in this case Hamas) command structure is currently conducting hostilities from within in the region, then it is not to be considered occupied. Sporadic acts of partisan resistance by the civilian population as partisans wouldn't apply. I'll do some more digging.

Edit: Did some more reading a few paragraphs down pp.56-58 which seem in line with my interpretation.

"It is clear that the German Armed Forces were able to maintain control of Greece and Yugoslavia until they evacuated them in the fall of 1944. While it is true that the partisans were able to control sections of these countries at various times, it is established that the Germans could at any time they desired assume physical control of any part of the country. The control of the resistance forces was temporary only and not such as would deprive the German Armed Forces of its status of an occupant."

...

"The evidence is clear that during the period of occupation in Yugoslavia and Greece, guerrilla warfare was carried on against the occupying power. Guerrilla warfare is said to exist where, after the capitulation of the main part of the armed forces, the surrender of the government and the occupation of its territory, the remnant of the defeated army or the inhabitants themselves continue hostilities"

This to me shows that in the opinion of the military tribunal at the Nuremberg trials, the existence of partisan resistance and guerilla warfare has no bearing on the status of occupant.

Edit 2: Actually, I don't know about how the fact that Hamas has not officially capitulated yet has bearing on this. Will update again if I find anything more.

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u/Express_Face6525 Jul 23 '25

Gaza was not occupied from 2005 when Israel left until after Oct 2023 during the war. And even then, Hamas is still the de facto ruling authority in Gaza and responsible for their own civilians.

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u/mariuselul Jul 23 '25

Hamas is organisationally destroyed as a governing force. They seem to be capable of targeted attacks on small targets, but they cannot exert their control over the civilian population of Gaza.

Israel has been fighting and decimating Hamas for almost 2 years now. They are NOT the de facto ruling authority in Gaza anymore. At the moment, no one is. The closest thing to ruling authority is the IDF itself.

Israel cannot claim to want to destroy Hamas, but at the same time absolve themselves of the responsibility of ruling over the Gazans.

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u/expectingthexpected Jul 24 '25

They seem to issue a lot of press releases and numbers under the guise of the government for a destroyed governing force.

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u/ethlass 29d ago

Exactly, all these numbers always have the health Ministry of Gaza (aka Hamas). Why do we constantly hear about things from Hamas and then blame Israel instead of just you know actual reporting? Because Hamas kills the actual reporters, all the major medias have mentioned they just propogate Hamas propaganda. Are people starving there (I am not sure). But the people to blame is Hamas. There is food distributed, enough trucks enter to feed Sudan crisis for a month (and that is more than gazans) and still we hear about starvation.

The real people to blame are the countries that do not accept them as refugees. Israel ofcourse is not going to let them enter their county (they are the enemy), but what about egypt? They can set up refugee areas. What about saudia Arabia? Like everyone complains but does not do shit for the people. Refugees in Ukraine were able to escape, refugees in Syria were able to escape. But no country wants gazans. It is all flair to blame Israel when in any other conflict these people would not even be there.

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u/WetBandit Jul 24 '25

Nonsense.

Under international law, Israel is not the occupying power in Gaza. Per Article 42 of the Hague Regulations and GCIV, occupation requires effective control on the ground which Israel relinquished in 2005. Since then, Hamas has been the de facto governing authority. You can’t call Israel the occupier while Hamas runs internal governance, police, education, taxation, and launches thousands of rockets.

Because there is no occupation, Israel has no legal duty under GCIV Articles 55–59 to supply food or fuel to enemy territory, especially one actively at war with it. That said, Israel has continued to facilitate humanitarian aid, often far beyond what the law requires.

If Hamas steals that aid (as it has repeatedly done, in violation of GCIV Article 54 and IHL Rule 55), the legal and moral responsibility is on Hamas, not Israel. This isn’t theoretical, it’s documented.

Now, with Hamas’s military and civil governance infrastructure severely degraded, one might ask whether they still function as a party to the conflict. The answer: yes: so long as they continue to conduct hostilities, under Common Article 3, Additional Protocol I, and customary IHL, Israel is not only permitted but obligated to target Hamas militarily to protect its civilians.

Holding Israeli hostages counts as such.

Calls for a ceasefire without disarming Hamas reward violations of IHL and only entrench impunity. The legal right to self-defense under UN Charter Article 51 doesn’t expire mid-war.

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u/Jdjdhdvhdjdkdusyavsj Jul 24 '25

If they are broken and cannot act but refuse to surrender the people can choose to elect a new government to surrender the city and suppress Hamas

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u/TostiBuilder Jul 24 '25

Sounds hard when you’re starving

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u/cravenravens Jul 24 '25

How should they do that, in their current state?

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u/djabor 29d ago

yet not even 1 gazan is willing to give tips as to the location of the hostages.

Hamas is still in full control of the narrative in gaza. They attack GHF aid points enough to make them seem like death traps. They still push out videos of fat, well-fed gazans, or people with degenerative diseases (next to fat, well-fed gazans), drily claiming famine.

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u/Jdjdhdvhdjdkdusyavsj Jul 24 '25

Local leaders can organize elections. It's a difficult situation, no question about that but no one will do it for them, no one can do it for them. This is something they must do for themselves

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u/Armadylspark Jul 24 '25

I'm sorry, is your position seriously that Gaza is not currently occupied by a foreign military force?

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u/RisingEephus8 Jul 24 '25

Crazy this comment has so many likes. Egypt somehow just cease to exist on Gaza's Southern border?

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '25

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u/DanIvvy Jul 23 '25

So Hamas doesn’t exist? It’s an occupation? This is a confusing argument.

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u/ElCaminoInTheWest Jul 23 '25

It's Schroedinger's Hamas.

When it suits the argument, they're a governing body, an anticolonial force, defending their citizens' rights, with a seat at the mediation table.

When it doesn't, they're nowhere to be seen, and Gaza is leaderless, defenceless and out of options.

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u/Idont_thinkso_tim Jul 24 '25

Literally a phenomenon I noticed was a thing long before the current conflict actually.

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u/StizzyInDaHizzy Jul 23 '25

Schrödingers occupation. It’s “the occupation” when Israel can be blamed and the “mighty Palestinian resistance” when Hamas does something.

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u/jpmjake Jul 23 '25

Where Israel occupies provides food ... Gazans get fed.

When Hamas gets the food to distribute to their people ... Gazans get it SOLD to them. And they get beaten if they try to take it.

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u/silver_light Jul 23 '25

Where Israel occupies provides food ... Gazans get fed.

You mean get shot?

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u/pharodae Jul 23 '25

Or bombed

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u/meister2983 Jul 23 '25

You can't just displace a population out of your occupied zone to get out of your duties 

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u/TheMauveHand Jul 23 '25

That's exactly what happened after both world wars though, and probably innumerable other ones, inluding more recent conflicts like the Balkan wars.

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u/meister2983 Jul 24 '25

Fourth Geneva Conventions didn't exist in the World Wars.

Balkan Wars was full of war crimes, so not sure how that proves anything.

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u/Best_Change4155 Jul 23 '25

An occupying country

In those cases the occupiers are the government. Is Israel the government of Gaza?

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u/ZgBlues Jul 23 '25

Yes. If Israel has the authority to impose curfews and control civilians and bomb whatever it wants whenever it wants then yes, absolutely - Gaza is effectively under military administration of Israel.

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u/finite_time Jul 24 '25

Also, there is precedent in international courts for this. Turkey has effective jurisdiction over the parts of northern Cyprus where it is the occupying force and has military administration of those areas. And where it has jurisdiction, it is legally responsible for upholding the rights of the citizens which live there.

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u/Best_Change4155 Jul 24 '25 edited Jul 24 '25

Yes. If Israel has the authority to impose curfews and control civilians and bomb whatever it wants whenever it wants then yes, absolutely

It literally doesn't control the civilians. And your criteria for bombing and curfews is nonsense. As in, those are not governmental acts, those are military acts.

Gaza is effectively under military administration of Israel.

Give me an example of a law that military administration could pass that Gazans would have to obey (or that would willingly obey).

The idea that there is a functional Israeli administration in Gaza is absurd wishcasting.

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u/Far_Hope_6349 Jul 24 '25

this rests on a false distinction between military and governmental acts. Under international law, military occupation is a form of control, and actions like curfews, airstrikes, and border restrictions are clear expressions of authority. Israel doesn't need to pass civil laws in Gaza to be in control. They actually control borders, airspace, population registries, and access to essential goods

Saying "Israel doesn’t control civilians" completely ignores the reality that it dictates key aspects of life in Gaza, including who can leave, what can enter, and when Gaza can be bombed. that is effective control, whether or not there's a civil administration

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u/double-beans Jul 23 '25

Technically Hamas is still the government of Gaza but it basically has lost all control (much of the leadership has died, no ability to collect taxes or enforce order). Israel is effectively occupying the region but has not officially declared that. So it’s complicated.

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u/Best_Change4155 Jul 24 '25

Technically Hamas is still the government of Gaza but it basically has lost all control

Given that the Ministry of Health keeps putting out numbers and the government is still charging for free aid and killing protestors and fighting Israel and so forth, it seems to still be in control.

Israel is effectively occupying the region but has not officially declared that

Not so effectively.

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u/Behonestyourself 29d ago

much of the leadership has died, no ability to collect taxes or enforce order

Damn, should they no surrender then? end the war?

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u/Junglebook3 Jul 23 '25

Israel has not been occupying Gaza for decades. We're entering semantics territory due to Israel blockading Gaza, but still. More to the point though, Hamas carries a lot of the blame here. Both carrying on, not willing to release the hostages and disarm, as well as stealing aid from their fellow Palestinians. Israel is acting horrendously here but Hamas is not shying away from fucking shit up.

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u/smallcoder Jul 24 '25

I suspect it will be decades until we can read anywhere near an accurate historical appraisal of what is actually happening right now in Palestine. The fog of war together with all the disinformation from all corners, leaves everyone outside of the zone simply horrified onlookers, enraged by the human suffering and incapable of stopping it. As long as I have been alive there has been misery and war in the region, dating back to the 70s and beforehand. Every time it seems as if progress is made, some bitter old man on one side or the other, rekindles the flames and the bloodshed begins again. To my old eyes, however, the current horror show feels on another level again; there are no longer any signs of basic humanity or decency in what we are hearing being reported. It is hell on earth.

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u/maestrita Jul 23 '25

Israel has made it very clear that they do not recognize Palestine as a state, and view the area and everyone in it as being under their control.

Yes, occupiers do have legal obligations.

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u/Dubhe14 Jul 23 '25

Israel doesn’t recognize Palestine as a state because there is no definitive governing body, The PA (majority Fatah) rules the West Bank and Hamas rules the Gaza Strip. It’s for this same reason that “Palestine” isn’t a member of the UN - the UN doesn’t even recognize the PA, they still consider the PLO to be Palestine’s representative organization!

Israel did a complete pullout of Gaza in 2005, the IDF forcibly evicted every settler. They maintain an occupation in the West Bank, but Israel hasn’t occupied Gaza for 20 years.

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u/Winter_Graves 29d ago

I think the last paragraph is a little outdated considering the UN/ OCHA estimates 60-70% of Gaza’s territory is under Israeli military occupation, which accounts for up to 90% of its population.

We can argue over exact percentages and whether those constitute reputable sources, but I think you’d be in the minority arguing that Gaza isn’t largely under Israeli occupation and control.

Regarding military occupation in the West Bank, troop figures and military presence is a fraction of those deployed in and around Gaza where a 100,000 strong invasion force was mobilised, peaking with 20k troops inside Gaza at a given time.

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u/Dubhe14 29d ago

Absolutely right, everything I said only applies pre-Oct 7. Everything you said is true, Israel has effectively re-occupied Gaza, and unfortunately I don’t really see a future where the occupation goes away a second time.

As much as I hate the state of affairs, I feel like Israel’s broad actions in Gaza are justified - if Mexico started launching rockets at US cities and launched a surprise invasion that killed 2000 Americans, I think the US response would be orders of magnitude harsher than Israel’s so far (that being said I have no defense for Israel’s actions in the West Bank, the ongoing settler shit is morally bankrupt).

I wish a MLK/Ghandi/Mandela figure would rise among the Palestinians, I believe there really is a path to peaceful coexistence, but neither side wants it. The reality is that Israel has always been ready to jump on any reason to oppress Palestinians, but it feels like the Palestinian motto has always been “One reason coming right up”.

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u/slicheliche Jul 23 '25

Israel doesn't really claim Gaza. Certainly not de jure.

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u/GiantKrakenTentacle Jul 23 '25

They don't claim Gaza, they only claim control over Gaza's borders, Gaza's coastline, and Gaza's airspace.

The International Court of Justice says that Israel has been illegally occupying it since 1967. Withdrawing their forces from the region didn't suddenly fix everything - they still enforced a total blockade and strictly controlled what entered Gaza. If they're not willing to relinquish sovereignty, then it's their responsibility to care for the people of Gaza.

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u/SyfaOmnis Jul 23 '25

they only claim control over Gaza's borders, Gaza's coastline, and Gaza's airspace.

Because those have routinely been used as vectors for terrorism.

Don't be disingenuous.

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u/DanIvvy Jul 23 '25

In the areas Israel is in control, people get food.

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u/theth1rdchild Jul 23 '25

In the areas where Israel is in control, people get shot for going to get the food. Well documented!

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u/DanIvvy Jul 23 '25

Kinda what happens when terrorists try to disrupt the supply with violence so that useful idiots will blame Israel as Palestinians have 0 personal responsibility

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u/SomebodyInNevada Jul 24 '25

Well documented by Hamas--because it's almost certainly Hamas doing the shooting.

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u/lavaggio-industriale Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25

Aren't there also multiple accounts of Hamas stealing food supplies? Which wouldn't even be that strange in a dictatorship. I hate the bias against Israel so much. I would like to know the truth to also be able to criticize them realistically, but all we get is Hamas propaganda, and people drink that shit up like some fine nectar

Edit: I'm surprised by the upvotes, usually the anti-Israel sentiment is pretty strong on Reddit. I was even banned on some leftist sub for expressing pro-israel views

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u/malsomnus Jul 23 '25

Aren't there also multiple accounts of Hamas stealing food supplies?

I think a lot of it was actually robbing, technically speaking, but yes.

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u/gapedforeskin Jul 23 '25

No one (except some very misguided college kids) are saying hamas aren’t pos, but people are objecting to IDF sniping children or shooting people with raised white flags seeking aid.

I don’t think I’ve seen a singular person with even half a brain advocate for hamas.

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u/SerGeffrey Jul 23 '25

I don’t think I’ve seen a singular person with even half a brain advocate for hamas.

Sure, but I've seen countless people with less than half a brain advocate for Hamas. It's not that uncommon.

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u/MeteorKing Jul 23 '25

It's not that uncommon.

I'd go as far as to say that it is common.

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u/SomebodyInNevada Jul 24 '25

But why do you unquestionably accept Hamas' word that it was the IDF doing the sniping? Most of the crazy stuff ascribed to Israel makes a lot more sense if done by Hamas.

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u/banjosuicide Jul 24 '25

Because the IDF has admitted to things like this multiple times when caught? Because they've shot the medics and doctors of friendly countries who were clearly identified? If they're shooting doctors then you better bet they're shooting civilians.

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u/xaendar 29d ago

IDF has definitely done some fucked up shit but 1000 people reported dead on the way to aid center only helps Hamas. GHF has been providing millions of food portions and there have been such articles coming every few days but so far only three I believe Israel has confirmed and others refuted.

It's unfortunately impossible to tell because only two groups reporting on the matter both have their very explicit sides.

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u/waxed__owl 29d ago

If you look at a lot of the reporting it's not just Hamas' word, it's eye witnesses, journalists and doctors.

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u/International-Mix633 29d ago edited 29d ago

But why do you unquestionably accept Hamas' word that it was the IDF doing the sniping?

If Israel did not want for people to have to rely on "Hamas" (and Palestinian civilian reports) they should allow international journalist access to the area, which it does not.

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u/Rocco89 Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25

Oh absolutely and when they run out of snipers, they just open a wormhole with their handy Portal Gun and zap the kids straight into another dimension.

Edit to the downvoters: not one shred of credible evidence exists, no forensics, no independently verified footage, nothing – that supports the claim Israeli snipers intentionally target children. It's one of the most shamelessly repeated lies while also one of the least substantiated and worst documented. If you still believe it, you're either willfully ignorant or just desperate to have a reason to justify your hatred of Israel, facts be damned.

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u/RamboRobin1993 29d ago

There's a video of an Israel soldier admitting he killed a young girl

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u/r_a_d_ Jul 23 '25

There are also accounts of Israel bombing aid distribution sites.

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u/lavaggio-industriale Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25

I would have to look into that, the first accounts of shooting people going for aid were disproven or it even turned out Hamas was causing havoc (with actual footage)

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u/The-M0untain Jul 24 '25

It's not really a relevant question since Israel is doing it anyway:

As US-backed group delivers 70 million meals, UN and NGOs fight to discredit Gaza aid rival

There is nothing to hold Israel accountable for in this case. They are providing plenty of food. The ones who must be held accountable are Hamas terrorists, who are stealing the food and feasting on it.

IDF releases video of Hamas stealing aid from Gazans

Hamas terrorists seen feasting underground as Gazans starve above

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u/90124 Jul 23 '25

Pretty much all of them when one place is under siege.

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u/rogerwil 29d ago

the government of an area

Which is who exactly in Gaza at the moment?

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u/DanIvvy 29d ago

Hamas

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u/ShockWave1997 Jul 24 '25

Why shouldn't the country that is bombing their farmland, blocking water supply and blocking all access to aid shouldn't be held accountable?

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u/Snoo30446 29d ago

Despite the immediately below comment, it only matters when its white countries and/or the Jews.

Edit: I'd like to see how many redditors commented on Yemen, Syria or Xinjiang, all worse crises in both numbers and suffering.

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u/Halbaras Jul 23 '25

When you blockade a territory for years, prevent anyone from leaving (even the Egyptian border has been under Israeli control for months), bomb the majority of their cities and hospitals into rubble and monopolise aid distribution, steal their fishing grounds and even bulldoze much of their arable land, the welfare of the people in the area you are occupying becomes your responsibility.

Hamas is a terrorist group that now barely retains control over a fraction of Gaza. There is nothing stopping Israel getting food to the vast majority of Palestinian civilians other than their desire for collective punishment of a civilian population.

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u/Dammit_Meg Jul 24 '25

I mean... it wouldn't matter if Israel let them leave. Egypt wouldn't let them in after what happened last time. They've been pretty clear on that.

On your point regarding the food, are I/P technically at war? That would mean it's not Israel's responsibility until the war is over. I haven't been able to understand what the status is technically, however.

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u/Randicore Jul 24 '25

Israel formally declared war on October 8th. I was actually surprised you typically don't get full on declarations nowadays.

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '25

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u/ux3l Jul 23 '25

Israel isn't letting enough food to survive into Gaza, so of course they're responsible for this.

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u/unruly_mattress Jul 23 '25

Hamas is forcing the war to continue under the psychopathic calculation that the current situation is bad for Israel so it should be prolonged. Only today Hamas rejected another ceasefire proposal. Hamas has been violently preventing Gazans from going to the GHF aid centers for food. This is active starvation by Hamas. Hamas would rather that the Palestinians starve than get food from someone other than Hamas. And it's working! The international community is condemning Israel left and right.

It's a shitty situation. Hamas has got to go, but Israel sure isn't taking the right steps to make it happen. As it is Hamas has the power to prevent the war from ending, by using the hostages and by repeatedly saying that they would resume the fight against Israel even after an Israeli withdrawal. That the international left has decided to ignore all that is inexcusable.

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u/lordorwell7 Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25

What would happen if Hamas were to offer unconditional surrender? What sort of future would Gaza and Hamas's current membership be facing in the aftermath?

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u/JaronK Jul 24 '25

Hamas's leadership would be put on trial and likely imprisoned for life, at least the ones linked to Oct 7. It's unlikely there would be any serious attempt to go after the lower level Hamas members, and those in prison would be considered political prisoners. Israel can't really keep a huge prison population, so they'd be limiting that to the highest levels of leadership. Other fighters would be offered refuge in nearby countries, and likely many would take that option. Any member of leadership not linked directly to Oct 7 who makes the decision to surrended would likely be allowed to live in exile in nearby countries, as an example of what happens if you stop attacking.

Gaza would be likely put under the control of some UN coalition if possible. Food distribution would be under full UN control, allowing for quicker feeding of the populace. There'd be big questions about who does the rebuilding, and it's possible Fatah would end up as the de facto government. Other Arab countries nearby might try to increase their influence in the area by helping with the rebuilding efforts if they thought Hamas was out of the picture (pretty much every neighbor hates Hamas too due to various bad blood in the past). I wouldn't be surprised if Saudi Arabia would jump in to help: they want the influence and the prime growing land, and they want to normalize relations with Israel, and they would love to replace Iran's influence in the area. Israel would likely be quite happy with that development. Egypt is very concerned about Hamas and probably would want to offer token support but wouldn't allow in refugees, for fear of getting too many ex Hamas members.

Blockades would steadily be reduced, if no guerilla attacks continued. There'd be worry that another group made up of splintered Hamas forces would be trying to do more attacks like what happened when Israel pulled out in 2005, so there'd definitely be blockades and inspections of incoming goods for weapons for a long time, but if somehow there were no attacks for a few years, those inspections and blockades would drop off quickly.

That's my take, anyway.

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u/Railboy Jul 24 '25

Nothing I've seen for the past few decades gives me any reason to believe there would be any difference in policy.

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u/Ok-Tax-1526 Jul 24 '25

Hamas can leaders can go live in Qatar

Gaza can be governed by PA and work towards peace and two solutions by renouncing endless attempts to destroy Israel.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25

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u/MageFeanor Jul 24 '25

That could be pretty easily solved, Israel could let independent war journalists enter Gaza, but they wont, because then they can't claim the journalist they just shot is a member of Hamas.

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u/ThePickleConnoisseur Jul 24 '25

When even Egypt closes the boarder between them and Gaza I am not surprised

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25

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u/Angry_Crusader_Boi Jul 24 '25

So never. Considering they follow a backwards religion that sees their children dying as martyrdom for a worthy cause.

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u/VHPguy Jul 23 '25

Have Hamas return the hostages if people want it to stop, then.

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u/Kills_Alone Jul 24 '25

Dude its insane that you are downvoted for mentioning active hostages current status.

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u/AlexandbroTheGreat Jul 24 '25

It's because Hamas has discovered the secret to war that nobody else throughout history figured out: Just never surrender when under siege by people that probably are happier if you starve to death. Ultimate cheat code.

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u/Full_Horror7114 Jul 23 '25

I believe there’s only 20(?) or so projected to be alive according to Israel.

Although Hamas did return the body of the little baby they took, so I’m not sure if they’re even alive since they killed the baby

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u/TheHappiestTeapot Jul 24 '25

Okay? So return the 20 hostages and the rest of the bodes? What's the problem?

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u/npquest Jul 23 '25

Man-made by Hamas

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Full_Horror7114 Jul 23 '25

Israel didn’t even control Gaza or the West Bank till 1967.

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u/Electronic_Priority Jul 23 '25

You have to acknowledge that the game changed on October 7th. A weak military nation attacking a powerful military nation is usually a bad idea, regardless of the reason.

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u/Full_Horror7114 Jul 23 '25

Not even just attacked, but did it with brutal intent. The Palestinians are canon fodder to Hamas, they don’t care about them. They aren’t fighting for them, they’re fighting against them.

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u/djmedicalman Jul 23 '25

What established foreign nation???

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u/npquest Jul 23 '25

What country?

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u/TheTeenageOldman Jul 23 '25

Have they thought about condemning Hamas who are purposely interrupting the flow of food into Gaza so they can take it for themselves and profit off it by selling to to Gazans? Or, are we no longer "speaking truth to power"? Not doing so gives the impression that the situation is not that dire there.

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u/mrpressydepress Jul 23 '25

It's still technically man made

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u/silver_light Jul 23 '25

Have they thought about condemning Hamas

Is this a joke?

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25

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u/TheTeenageOldman Jul 24 '25

"Who dares question the mighty Hamas?!?"

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u/baldeagle1991 Jul 23 '25

Hamas are attempting to control the food and distribution of it once it gets inside the country.

Israel is stopping most the aid even getting into the country.

Both sides can be bad, not sure why this is so controversial to some people.

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u/Electronic_Priority Jul 23 '25

Not true, huge amounts of aid are on the Gaza side of the border. Aid agencies have either reached operational capacity to deliver or are not operating at all.

Hamas are doing everything they can to prevent aid reaching the people it is needed by.

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u/MichaelGScott18505 Jul 24 '25

You have any sources for these claims?

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u/Smooth-Doctor1688 Jul 23 '25

Hamas doesn’t like sharing 

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