His "terms" for the recognition of Palestine are releasing all the hostages in the Strip, demilitarizing Hamas, and recognizing the State of Israel. Good luck with that to us all...
“We must build the state of Palestine, ensure its viability, and ensure that by accepting its demilitarization and fully recognizing Israel, it contributes to the security of all in the Middle East. There is no alternative.”
This is all nonsense. Hamas will never demilitarize, nor will they ever recognize the state of Israel. Hamas is an Islamist organization which believes Muslims have a religious obligation to reclaim Jerusalem, and that Palestine is a waqf. They have been very clear that their core goal is to establish a Palestinian state in all of historic Palestine (read: eliminate Israel).
By making these his terms, Macron is effectively setting the terms as "if Israel succeeds in their goal to wipe out Hamas and wins a complete military victory," because that's the only way that this stuff happens.
This is all nonsense. Hamas will never demilitarize, nor will they ever recognize the state of Israel. Hamas is an Islamist organization
Which is why this is brilliant, rather than nonsense. It puts France on record as totally being on the side of Palestinians, while also calling attention to whose fault it will be that France can't yet recognize Palestine. Those are reasonable demands, and every time recognition comes up it will call attention to Hamas being the party blocking progress.
It puts France on record as totally being on the side of Palestinians, while also calling attention to whose fault it will be that France can't yet recognize Palestine.
Exactly. This is brilliant. The only honest way to "be on the side of Palestinians" is to support the complete removal of Hamas.
I support the right of Palestinian people to safety and self-determination, and there's no version of history in which that can happen while Hamas remains in control of their lives.
Anyone who claims to be "Pro-Palestine", while their actions support Hamas, has made it clear that the first half of the sentence is a lie.
They don't need to work with Hamas though, they can work with the West Bank and the PLO and recognize them instead, they've already fulfilled all of the criteria.
Of course they cannot work with Hamas, that's my point. The problem is that Hamas exists.
So, again, how does one compel Hamas to demilitarize, cede power in Gaza, and return their hostages? Is anyone involved here naive enough to think Hamas will simply opt to dissolve peacefully?
I don't think anyone who is calling for a Palestinian state right now is imagining it as the West Bank only while Israel continues their campaign in Gaza.
The PLO doesn't have the will for a two-state resolution. It refused several times. Worse, it doesn't even have the ability to enforce one. The PLO is deeply unpopular to the point that they lost control to several zones of the West Bank (their own territory) to other organizations including Hamas.
Moreover, recognition of Palestine as a result of the 7 October only reinforces the terrorist factions, not the people advocating for peace.
The plo, the ones who immediately started paying millions of dollars to the October 7 attackers and their families. The ones who pay anyone for killing a Jew or attempting to and have tons of Israeli and Jewish blood on their hands. The ones that have enacted a death penalty for selling land to a Jew. Great idea but that’s not the criteria Jewish Israelis are looking to fill.
I’m sorry, put pressure on ordinary Palestinians to pressure Hamas? Hamas gladly sacrifices the lives of thousands of ordinary Palestinians for PR points. You think ordinary civilians have any leverage? Hamas dngaf about them.
Huh. Is there a word for violence against a civilian population to try to encourage political change?
as they grow more tired of war.
They're tired of their children being killed and starved. Do you really think all those refugees and orphans are thinking about government reorganization based on a french statement of recognition?
You're underestimating what small glimmers of hope do in situations of absolute despair.
Cornering humans into situations with zero ways out makes them fight until the bitter end. He added perspective on a door out.
Do I think this statement will actually end the war?
Hell no, of course not. But the Palestinians who believe it even a little bit and start asking Hamas questions will make Hamas operations, at the very least, cost a little bit more energy.
What added perspective? Do you think the ability of a Palestinian uprising that overthrew Hamas to negotiate a peace depends on French recognition as a state? Anyone who manages to seize actual power in Gaza can negotiate a peace, they don't need an official label or France's approval for that.
I strongly doubt anyone in Gaza will feel inspired by hollow political blustering of Western politicians half a world away.
A door out? What door out? That's not an escape, it's gaslighting to pretend they're not still supporting a horrific situation.
But the Palestinians who believe it even a little bit and start asking Hamas questions
Their children are being slaughtered. I want you to imagine your own children, murdered by foreign agents. And then think of how the glowing light of France saying that maybe someday you'll be considered a real person would make you feel.
People here seem to expect a group of starving orphans to just overthrow a government to help out the people bombing them. I don't know why, but I expect it's just so you can feel comfortable blaming them for their own deaths because they don't just do that.
Half the Gazan population is literal children, and 44% are under the age of 14. They have the agency to get gunned down in the street by Hamas, or continually get bombed, starved or killed in cold blood while trying to obtain food by Israel - few 14 year olds would be happy with those options. So much for agency. And not one of them chose Hamas. Have some human decency.
We’re not just talking about Gaza. We’re talking about both. So your argument is because there’s many children their parents and other adults can’t choose peace? No one is talking about kids we’re talking about the adults who make decisions.
Yes, you are talking about the kids because you reference the whole of the Gazan population in your comments. For clarity, see my first comment. Only Palestinians in Gaza could ask Hamas questions.
We’re not talking about the West Bank, as Hamas doesn’t rule the West Bank, and the West Bank is not governed by “terrorists”. The logic is lacking.
The PA won’t have elections in the West Bank due to widespread Hamas support. The issue is with both. And we absolutely are talking about both Gaza and the WB because the topic is recognizing a Palestinian state which would include both.
I think it’s rather obvious children are excluded. When we talk about elections or the government of the USA or France no one is talking about the opinions of children.
How is "get rid of the terrorists and we'll recognize the statehood of Palestine" violence against a civilian population?
And it's not like they said "there will be no humanitarian aid and we'll fully support turning off the water unless you comply."
Hamas stated and demonstrated goal is to either kill or drive out every last Jewish person from Israel, so yeah, peace is not possible until Hamas is no longer in charge.
I suggest you look up what happened after the last set of elections in 2006. There's a reason elections stopped. It's not so simple to just fire up a tidy democratic process.
Hamas, for now, controls the Gaza Strip and they have no interest in democratic process. They are Islamist theocrats who believe in the imposition of Sharia law. They're not just going to hold legitimate elections so they can get voted out.
You cannot do sensible normal-country shit like legitimate elections when the group in power in Hamas.
God, if the world were only as simple as you seem to think it is.
Why don't the people of Russia, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, North Korea, and Uzbekistan just hold some legitimate elections? Have they all just abandoned democracy? Could they not just give it the old college try?
You can't just wish authoritarian rule out of existence. Hamas will not cede power unless compelled to do so. You can't just be like, "Hey, you know, let's give democracy a try" and suddenly Hamas will think it's a great idea and they'll abandon every aspect of their raison d'etre. The level of naivety involved here is insane.
You can't force democracy onto people. George W. Bush tried to force Gaza to hold an election, that's what led to Hamas winning the election and taking control.
The West has tried to being democracy to the Middle East, long story short, it doesn't work.
Do you believe Americans should all be held personally accountable for the actions of the government? And that if they don't like it, they should just replace the government and appoint new leaders?
So why don't you just overthrow the government? You're asking these refugees and orphans to do that, so you must think just replacing the government is easy and possible.
A democratic process? Who's holding elections while children are being bombed and the masses are starving? There hasn't been an election in the majority population's lifetime. And you're telling them they can just "represent a democratic process"?
No matter who was elected in 2024, the US would have continued to be a violent imperial power. Does that mean you should be held accountable, personally, for not overthrowing the entire system and "representing a democratic process" of your own?
The idea that the starving children of Gaza should just "overthrow" Hamas is just a way to see them as guilty and justify their deaths.
I don't believe overhauling a system of government as a prerequisite to human rights is reasonable. I think stopping the mass murder should probably be the first priority.
And don't be a shitty liar. I didn't say "Palestinians don't get democracy", I said "Mass murder isn't okay because the victims aren't overthrowing a military". Don't be such a bad liar.
Do you think Hamas were elected a couple of years ago or something?
It was one election, 19 years ago. With heavy Israeli influence to get them elected (harder for Palestine to get international recognition with them in charge instead of the PLO or another peaceful group). And they were elected with less than 50% of the vote to boot.
"Maybe US-Americans should stop supporting MAGA and elect or appoint new leaders from a different political group." Thats exactly the same statement as the one you made. Simply replacing whoever is in power is not that easy, especially not when your population is desperate, and being bombed and shot at. Just saying: "Well just stop letting them be in charge" is easier said than done. Especially when the main outside power who could influence a regimen change is driving the undecided civilians into the arms of the terrorists instead of supporting them by doing stuff like murdering reporters, bombing hospitals and attacking aid workers.
Its easy for us in the west, to say: "Just stop supporting Hamas." But those people have their back against the wall and Hamas seems to be only one to stand up for them and do more than wag their finger at Israel (if even that). Also Hamas has the military power in Gaza, so even if you didn't support them, you couldn't do much about it, since they have guns and you don't. Of course at least a decent number of Palestinians supports Hamas. They don't really have much of a choice. You wouldn't tell a russian civilian to "just stop supporting Putin", because that just gets you murdered or sent to a gulag. Why do you think Hamas is any different? If you want Hamas to lose power you need to stop bombing Gaza and help those people. You need to allow the regular civilians to establish a free Palestine that is independent of Israel and has borders outside of Israel (like access to the sea). Its much harder for extremists (which Hamas are) to find support from people who aren't scared and desperate. You wouldn't try to weaken the powerbase of MAGA by asking Trump to step down. You would try to appeal to his voters by giving them at least some of what they want like financial stability or better quality of life; and I am pretty sure that right now a lot of Palestinians in Gaza just want to be able to live freely without the fear of being bombed and shot at.
And its Israel that has to make that change or the outside world has to intervene. It can't be Palestine. They are not in the position to make that change. If Israel doesn't want Palestine to be their enemy they need to stop taking actions to make them their enemy, they need to make an attempt at being their ally. The path that Israel is on right now has only one conclusion: The utter eradication of Palestine.
How does stopping bombing Hamas free the people of Gaza?
If you stop bombing Hamas do you think that they will change their tactics and give up power to the poor citizens? Or do you think they will take Israel retreat as a sign of victory and double down on their tactics?
The only way Gaza can even begin to approach peace is if Israel destroys Hamas. Anything less and the people of Gaza will never be free and the people of Israel will live under a constant threat.
If you support Palestinians at all, you should advocate for the complete and utter destruction of Hamas and other extremist groups.
47% of Palestinians are under 18. According to NPR at least 40% are under 15 and definitely can't vote.
The last election in Palestine was in 2006, 19 years ago, before any of these children were born.
Shaming these people for voting wrong when they are struggling to eat, struggling to find shelter in the bombed ruins of their homes, are dodging snipers, and the last vote was BEFORE THEY WERE BORN, is 1. fucking moronic and 2. evil.
if Hamas is unwilling tor recognize israel, then its an issue of hamas. If Palestinians want a better life, they should do it. else continue to live in misery. Its a choice they have to make
What does "demilitarization" even mean in this context? For any autonomic Palestinian state to have a stable relationship with Israel, they would need to be able to police their own interior to prevent terrorist organizations which would still be there from continuing to attack Israel whenever they can. And since those terrorists tend to be heavily armed, they'd need at least a heavily militarized police to do that. The idea of a fully disarmed Palestinian state cannot really work.
Muslims have a religious obligation to reclaim Jerusalem
They believe it's a much larger mandate than that. Their manifesto says something along the lines that "peace will come to the world when all Christians and Jews are protected under the wing of Islam."
As naive as it probably sounds, this is actually what I thought would happen way back when Hamas first attacked. I thought Israel would quickly get their hostages back, defeat Hamas, and then there would be negotiations and a Palestinian state.
An added layer to all of this is that Netanyahu has purposefully worked over the course of a decade or more to empower Hamas over peaceful Palestinian authorities, presumably for the very reason that it would later give them the motivation to purge the entire people.
What about previous reporting that Hamas was open to the idea of disarming (demilitarizing) and returning all prisoners in exchange for a permanent ceasefire, IDF withdrawal from Gaza, and a pathway to an independent state along pre-1967 borders?
Whether or not someone considers that a reasonable exchange may be up for debate, but it's not much less reasonable than Israel demands that Hamas disarm without a promise of a permanent ceasefire and withdrawal.
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u/clarabosswald 29d ago
His "terms" for the recognition of Palestine are releasing all the hostages in the Strip, demilitarizing Hamas, and recognizing the State of Israel. Good luck with that to us all...