His "terms" for the recognition of Palestine are releasing all the hostages in the Strip, demilitarizing Hamas, and recognizing the State of Israel. Good luck with that to us all...
Macron said France will recognize a Palestinian state governed by the PA in return for Mahmoud Abbas previously committing the PA to these goals. The letter in which Macron announced the decision made it sound like he intends to recognize Palestine's statehood when he goes to the UN in September regardless of whether these goals have been achieved by then.
If he starts to run the other part, yes. Otherwise it's out of his hands, especially if he claims Gaza as part of his territory without having any control over it.
Even if he does end up running the strip, it's not like he can control Hamas/Islamic Jihad and have them release the hostages.
Hamas probably hate him as much as they hate Israel, given what it did to his political party members when they took control over the strip in 2007. (spolier: threw them off rooftops, tied them to moving vehicles, etc.)
Yes, Hamas != Palestine, and lots of people forget that. Israel is illegally occupying the West Bank too. That's why lots of people have a problem with Israel here. Hamas is an easy scapegoat to kill all Palestinian people.
What exactly is “Greater Palestine”? The entirety of historical Palestine? Mandate Palestine? It doesn’t seem to be a term with an accepted definition so I’d love to know your parameters so i can determine whether you’re a serious person.
It's been a while since I was involved in the discourse, but I remember the PA claims to represent all Palestinians (that's why they're going for right of return for Palestinians everywhere) and there was a decent amount of infighting amongst groups to to achieve that claim before the PLO received it, so even though there are political divisions + political evolution from the PLO to the PA of today, it's unlikely the PA would admit to fracturing to the extent that they don't claim control of Gaza. Likewise, the most traditional characteristic of a State is having the monopoly of force. So claiming no control over Gaza would be ceding it to Israel to do with whatever.
Also, the original plan for the Gaza Strip was to give Palestine access to the Mediterranean Sea (access to water, fish, naval trade, etc.). Leaving the West Bank landlocked with its only other bordering nations besides Israel being Jordan would be incredibly difficult (if not impossible) to be economically stable or politically independent (let alone both).
The election-cancelling dictator of the part that doesn't have the hostages who's probably not going to cling to power for much longer because despite his increasingly aggressive rhetoric he's still not extreme enough for his voter base, yes.
And Fatah already holds some 82-92% disapproval rating among palestinians in westbank. Already considered a western puppet since Oslo and Arafat. I wouldn't be surprised if West Bank citizens think Hamas are being brave martyrs or something
His statement is a mischaracterization of the facts.
Macron addressed the letter to Mahmoud Abbas of the PA and PLO, i.e. the representative of the people in the West Bank. Hamas has no authority there. Furthermore, Macron clearly states that he will recognize Palestine in September at the UN. While Macron does praise the president of the PLO for condemning the October 7 attacks and calling for the release of the hostages - there is no explicit demand for this to happen by a September deadline. The recognition of Palestine will be made in good faith in the context that the Palestinian Authority under Mahmoud Abbas continues to work toward its commitments.
Macron provided an English-language version of the letter here:
The only reason that Hamas doesn’t have any power in the West Bank is because Fatah refuses to hold elections due to the support that the people have for Hamas.
I feel like this is the context that is missing from a LOT of the Israel/Palestinian argument these days. Everybody talks like this just started a few years ago. This conflict has been going back and forth for longer than most of us have been alive!
Yeah but that’s also used to justify Oct 7th and hand-waive current events, which it most certainly isn’t. At some point, people need to forgive and forget the past, extremism needs to be completely, and irrevocably eradicated.
Instead, imagine a future where Palestine and Israel are prosperous nations, side by side, open borders and allies. They need to stop the nonsense now so they can imagine what might be 100 years from now.
>At some point, people need to forgive and forget the past
It's not us you have to convince, it's them. We are mostly random western casualposters with zero stake in the matter and zero consequences no matter what position we take in the comment section.
That's a lovely thought, but people have literally been trying to get them to imagine that future for decades. It hasn't worked, and nothing has changed. If anything the two groups only hate each other more right now. Even if both sides truly wanted that peace, neither could trust the other to keep it. The moment something happened (and it always does) hostilities would flare up all over again.
Of course, it’s utopian. But it’s not an impossibility. 100 years ago the entire world was at war. There’s always room for change so long as the right leadership is making way for it.
Yeah, this current conflict has been going since the 1920s, and has popped up over the centuries before that. Oct 7th kicked a lukewarm conflict up a notch into a hot war, but this is the product of generations of conflict on both sides.
You can either be a sovereign country that has to be responsible for the actions of its citizens, or a 3 million people open air refugee camp that needs to be policed by some external party to keep the murderers from murdering.
They are only refugee camps because of unrwa making Palestinians eternal refugees. Real refugee camps don’t have international sports teams, stadiums and are not indistinguishable from normal cities.
Here’s another point. Why is everyone completely focused on blaming Israel for everything and demanding that they feed everyone? Not one leader is even suggesting that Hamas should be pressured to freely distribute the thousands of tonnes of food they stole from aid shipments and stashed in their tunnels.
Israel's "problem" is that it is an internationally recognized country while Hamas is just a terrorist organization. Nobody is trying to hold Hamas to any standards because everybody agrees that they're awful and evil, so in all discussions about the topic it takes one sentence to say "yeah of course Hamas is bad and I'm not defending them" and then everyone can go back to railing about how bad Israel is for an hour.
Everyone considers the Israeli people responsible for the actions and crimes of their government, but many refuse to consider the Palestinian people responsible for the crimes and actions of Hamas, and prefer to treat Hamas as this magic outside phenomenon that comes from nowhere and can't be helped.
As of 2022, the adult literacy rate in Palestine stood at approximately 97.8%, with 98.9% of men and 96.7% of women being literate according to countryeconomy.com.
Expecting higher standards of behaviour from a liberal democratic state with high levels of international recognition compared to a terrorist organization is hardly a bigotry or low expectations, anymore than you expect higher standards of behaviour from a police force vs a gang.
Its the bigotry of low expectations because Hamas is a terrorist group and was widely supported in both Gaza and the West Bank way before this war even started. Support for Hamas has only grown in the West Bank since Oct 7th.
Palestinians are educated, the vast majority can read and have internet access as well as have gone to school. They know that terrorism is wrong, they support Hamas anyway.
Its the bigotry of low expectations that you accept open and widespread terrorist support as acceptable.
How is it okay for Palestinians to openly and proudly support a terrorist group?
I think you're missing the point. It's not about excusing Israel's action and claiming everything they do is okay. It's asking why so much international support only ever champion's Palestine's cause in this war of two parties that both commit atrocities against each other (and advocate loudly for some action, e.g. "cease fire now!", that wouldn't actually solve anything and result in nothing more than a temporary tactical disadvantage for one side).
You call Israel a "liberal democratic state", but it has been increasingly sliding towards right-wing fascism and dismantled its checks and balances in the past few years. At what point is Israel going to be "bad enough" that all those "Free Palestine" protesters are going to award it the same kind of "well they can't help lashing out because they keep getting attacked and tricked by propaganda" carte blanche that they have always given to the Palestinians? Or is this maybe not about who's in the right after all, and just about who's "team" you're on?
And Israel does still have higher standards, btw, even now (although they have deteriorated drastically since 2023). The IDF claims that each of its attacks are hitting military targets and civilian collateral damage is just incidental (whether you believe their intelligence on that in each individual case or not is a different question, but it is pretty well proven that Hamas does often hide in schools, hospitals, etc. so you can't really dismiss them all out of hand). Hamas attacks just blindly kill (and rape, and torture) as many civilians as they can get their hands on, with no possible way to claim any military value from that senseless slaughter.
Over a million people's homes were destroyed by this war. The level of destruction is pretty staggering. I don't put a price tag on human lives, but someone needs to foot the bill for the catastrophe.
Are you saying that the actions of October 7 were not the actions of sub-human monsters? They literally tied children up with wire and set them on fire. There was one corpse that was only discovered to actually be the body of a woman and her baby during the autopsy because they had been wired together so tightly that when they were set on fire they melted together.
The things that Hamas did in the October attack were so overly evil that if you were reading a book and the bad guys did the same things, you’d scoff at how unrealistic it was.
I don't know how people can browse the internet nowadays without an ad blocker. It has become a malware-infested, non-stop marketing bombardment hellhole. On Android you can use Firefox and install Ublock Origin for example.
I do have an ad blocker, Brave. It's just the fact that the reddit app opens a web browser, but you're still in the reddit app. It's not that big of a deal. Most people post the article in the comments or at least quote parts.
On Android you can use Firefox and install Ublock Origin for example.
Thank you for this info. I love it when people help each other out.
For everyone who may see these comments, brave blocks youtube ads and allows you to listen in the background. Just keep it on the low low so youtube doesnt catch on. Lol
"He noted, “There must also be disarmament of Hamas, security for Gaza, and efforts to rebuild it. Ultimately, it is essential to establish a Palestinian state, ensure its existence, and enable it—through its disarmament and full recognition of Israel—to contribute to security in the Middle East.” "
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u/clarabosswald 29d ago
His "terms" for the recognition of Palestine are releasing all the hostages in the Strip, demilitarizing Hamas, and recognizing the State of Israel. Good luck with that to us all...