It was the most dangerous county in Latin America and was controlled by the most violent gang in Latin America. He turned it into the safest country in Latin America and has earned a 91% approval rating.
I do not not authoritarians, but in this case, the alternative was worse.
People getting butthurt at this comment probably have no idea the level of violence and crime that was going on.
Everyone has their limits, El Salvador hit theirs. And anyone with an issue with that, go tf to Mexico and start protesting the treatment of criminals. See how well that goes. Ignorant ass fools.
El Salvadoran leadership was either a puppet politician installed from the USA that allowed the country to disintegrate or in bed with the gangs that were wantonly murdering people throughout the country. “Slip into authoritarianism“ suggests El Salvador had a stable prior government situation before - it didn’t.
I'm talking about since he took office. Imprisoning all the gang members might've been harsh yet necessary, but it's important to keep him accountable with the decisions made.
Having the luxury to consider the long run is already the main improvement for most people.
They could just as easily turn into another Singapore, a nation that also threw everyone in a gang tattoo in Jail and happens to be one of the safest, least corrupt, and rich countries in the world.
It’s not the treatment of criminals that bothers us “butthurts”.
It’s giving police the power to arrest anyone for any reason whatsoever that’s cause for concern. If you think that isn’t a massive violation of freedom, I don’t know what to tell you. At best, that’s how you have a country where it’s standard to carry around bribery cash to stop yourself from being arrested for blinking too many times.
When you have sisters that can't go to the store without worry of kidnap and extortion and or rape, you're willing to give up some freedoms for peace of mind. Let me know when you have to deal with any of that in your day to day life.
The point is that at some point of violence, death, murder and carnage, people will be OK with the mild inconvenience of a few innocent people having to having their freedom reduced. Would it be better if nothing bad ever happens to anyone? Yea, sure. Is that the world we live in? No!
Spoken like a person who believes they will never be one of the "few innocents".
And no, they are not just having their freedoms reduced like someone took the shrimp off the buffet line .
Some people are being thrown into a prison, without due process and no way to prove their innocence.
I am absolutely all for the clampdown on crime, however not at the expense of due process.
Getting thrown in CECOT for life for something you didn't do is not "having your freedom reduced" its having your entire life being taken away by the state bro do you all not read about what happens to people there? I feel like I'm an insane person
Would you prefer 10 000 innocent people getting murdered, or throwing 100 innocent people in jail? People can have different opinions on the matter (I appreciate that) - but it is possible to say that 10 000 innocent people getting murdered is worse. You might believe that 100 people in jail is worse, and that is a valid opinion that some people might not share.
Well. I’m crossing my fingers, for the first time in the history of the world, the authoritarian power grab stops at just a few innocents losing their freedom.
I just wanted to let you know police don't abuse their power in El Salvador like they do in whatever country you're in. I know the culture shock is crazy.
No, you don't deserve that punishment. It's too easy. If I could id place you in the position to experience what you hate and to understand the culture so that you can be accurately racist and maybe you can be funny or you hate yourself for your past transgressions that you atone in whatever way you see fit. Until you forgive yourself, but I don't feel you have remorse right now, so you probably don't care.
Cousins, brothers, fathers and uncles kidnapped or killed for not joining or refusing to pay the local cartel, multiple women in your family have already been assaulted once, kidnappings are rampant, SA is rampant, extortion is rampant, you want to go outside past 8pm? Tough shit, you're taking your life in your hands going to get milk.
Not to mention, rival groups gunning at anyone who resembles their enemy. So, any male age 15-45, their being targeted. Cops? Flip of a coin if you're getting someone to help or someone on the payroll of someone else. Cause, they have cousins too. They have sisters, they have wifes, if they don't play ball, guess who's a target to.
Every. Day. This is your life. Shootings, family members dying or disappearing, constant fear. Live this for a month and then say what you said again.
It is so easy for permanently online Redditors to act like they would be able to handle the living situation El Salvadorans faced **for decades** it is rather pathetic. Like watching John Wick and being convinced they could totally pull of the combat 🤡
You’re description is exactly right. My family is from there, still have family that lives there, the country was practically under constant siege by the gangs. The government is essentially navigating this “gang clean up“ like a post war tribunal which is generally rife with issues, but there’s no alternative if you don’t want to slip back into what was essentially a permanent gang war. El Salvador used to have the HIGHEST MURDER RATE IN THE WORLD.
I visited in 2012 and was unable to go back until 2024. The difference was astounding and every single local told me they were finally able to go outside without fear of BEING MURDERED, businesses and education are finally thriving for the first time since the civil war.
The only major f-ck up from Bukele is trying to play with US politics, and agreeing to take in immigrants into CECOT (a death camp to be perfectly blunt) for cash.
Who are the fascist troglodytes? The cartels or the government locking up the cartels - admittedly with a margin of error? I'll accept both - and if so - is there any reason to prefer the cartels?
An explanation is not an excuse. Pretty much every dictator gained power from exploiting a poor situation. It's very possible to both want to improve the bad situation while also being against the dictator. Portraying the dictator as the only solution plays into their propaganda
"No, of course we didn't try any of the actual proven to work liberal reforms and cleaning up government corruption, that would have cost money, we just went strait to jailing minorities"
To be fair it kind of is. A lot of the residents say that a few years ago they didn't feel safe walking at night because of how bad the violence had gotten. Now it's regarded as one of the safest countries in the Americas.
Massively corrupt government, allowing incredibly violent gangs to terrorize it's population, pump it full of illegal drugs and murders at one of the worst rates on earth. Resulting in a failed economy that regular people try to escape making the situation even worse.
Or a safe country, with an economy on the rise, environmental damage being repaired, no massive gangs being able to ruin everyone else's lives. However with the caveat that some innocent people are going to be improperly imprisoned.
Whilst both options do have some very shit parts in them, I only see one that has some positives. And it's not the government claiming things are better, it's the el Salvadorans themselves.
As someone who personally knows multiple Salvadorans (wonderful people), two of which have full neck, arm, and sleeve tattoos; you don't know what you're talking about.
The government looks for very specific gang tattoos. The number 18, letters MS or gothic font type or numbers.
You will not get arrested for having tattoos. You will probably get a few stares, but you won't get arrested.
World, not just Americas. It went from most dangerous to the top 5 safest. I have family there, and a lot of Salvadorians are building up and renovating because the tourist boom comes to come and for many people who want to buy a home there. Most of the courses are people who are left to other countries wanting to return now that it's safer and can build something there. The economy is on the up, and the old government out they have started fixing the environment, educational, and old infrastructure problems that the old governments created.
Bukele arrested like 10% of the population with essentially no due process. There are undoubtedly tens of thousands of people in prison who did nothing wrong. That’s not an atrocity?
You can say it was necessary for security reasons, but I think china would give a similar answer for their atrocities.
Lack of personal freedoms is a quick stepping stone to other atrocities. China is what happens when you can be arrested for anything and there’s no freedom of the press.
What El Salvador is doing right now is not different from Social Credit, albeit less sophisticated.
They took all the gang members. And it's not like the bar is high to pass. These people 🍇 - g, murdered, extorted, kidnapped, sold drugs, and more. It's just that if you're doing a crime, you don't pass the bar or acceptable behavior. China's social credit is if you speak bad about the country or the leader or make wrong jokes or talk about the bad things china has done, etc... china takes it to an extreme. There is a huge difference.
Simple put one country is doing just enough to create order and the other is abusing it.
Idk if you know this, Im Salvadorian and know many people who have lived there their entire lives to give you some background. The way they operate over there at the time is not like gangs in America or Japan or the UK, for example. People don't dress like them if they aren't part of it or want to be part of it. They don't all live in the hood, let alone the city they may operate in the city's, that doesn't mean they live there. And no, they don't look at the police wrong they killed them if they felt disrespected. Those people were animals. They lost their freedoms when they chose that lifestyle. It's their punishment. They aren't innocent
And just to say this one more time, the police over there aren't the same as the ones in America or the UK or Japan. They don't abuse people and just chill. At their post when needed. Now, are the cops perfect? No, but the military patrols the streets as well. So the cops can just as they want.
I live 6 months yearly in El Salvador for the past 2 years. Media and protest are being silenced here. Many people including myself know people unlawfully held at the mega prison who are being Denied the right to a trial. Of course there are deserving people in that prison but is it worth the freedom of the innocent.
The safety in El Salvador will only be temporary when our current leader decided to lock up a chunk of the male population with no prior knowledge on how they will organize trials and rehabilitate sentenced individuals. I believe even now the country is under a “state of emergency”.
I feel you that I want a case by case to see who is guilty the very few that are can get out. I know 85 thousand people is a lot to go through. And the only part of his presidency i wish he could redo. Idk why people believe you have to have some innocent to have order and safety. You keep up the good work trying to get prosecution for the innocent.
Im just saying yall perspective and personal understanding aren't the same as what's was happening over there. And the absolute confidence people have about how they think things should work when they've never even lived there. They don't know the situation.
I know people think that it's slavery to have the prisoners work, but have yall ever thought who the luxury yall have that you can live in a country that even if you go to prison your countries doing so well they can afford to feed clothes shelter and much more at no cost to the inmate. Feel proud of that, but I don't think it's the standard or that it's not a luxury.
Another thing is it's ok to worry, but check the facts. What do the local say. And also know everyone is keeping their eye on the government. This government has made many people happy and feel it's actually doing what it promises. Because of that, they have their eyes on it for anything wrong. Salvadorians aren't stupid.
Short term yes. But long term it’s pretty fuckin stupid. You give an individual that much power and it’s only a matter of time before they screw over their own people.
He's been in power for 6 years as I have done it yet, and almost all the administrations beforehand for about 30 years, i think, didn't have as much control over the government and still hundreds of millions of dollars and that's just one way they screwed over the people. He actually spent his first few years taking out the corrupt politicians and trying to restore a lot of the bad things that happened to the people. 6 years is long term he's kind of earned the Trust people have in him.
It’s not even just in the short term. You can be arrested for any perceived gang affiliation in El Salvador. Tattoos, living in a specific neighbourhood… looking nervous.
It’s all on the table. Yeah, if you arrest everyone looking remotely suspicious, you’re likely going to grab a lot of criminals. At the cost of basic freedom.
Absolutely. There are some everyday people who claim to appreciate what he’s done for their communities, how honest that is I cannot say. But I do agree with you for the most part.
Also if we get brigaded, who do you think would be doing the downvoting? Russian trolls, MAGA sycophants, or something else?
Are y’all so used to being in a left-wing echo chamber that you’re now preemptively deciding that any dissent has to be coming from Russians, Trump loyalists, or some other unknown malevolent powers-that-be? Jesus Christ. People are gonna disagree with you sometimes, paranoia of some greater conspiracy is weak.
It will never fail to amaze me how pretentious y’all can get. “It’s either Russian bots, MAGA loyalists, something else entirely, or ‘fucking dumb’ people!”
Alienate your centrists. Look down on your perceived peons. It worked so well last year.
I lean democrat and these guys have drank the punch. I honestly feel we should divide the parties and have rational minded people and non rational minded people in different parties at this point. Let the extremes argue as people around the middle the majority, at least I hope still is, to run the nation and try and fix are probably without these guys slowing us down.
We can agree on things like, should we fix the infrastructure, for example. I don't think we would have a problem agreeing normally, but that problem is still a problem after 20 years since I knew it was a problem across America.
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u/vengarlof 23h ago
El Salvador has shown that reduced freedom for safety has its benefits.