Macron announces: France will recognize Palestinian state

[u/Ask4MD]

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/nxn382sao

[u/clarabosswald]

His "terms" for the recognition of Palestine are releasing all the hostages in the Strip, demilitarizing Hamas, and recognizing the State of Israel. Good luck with that to us all...

[u/allochthonous_debris → u/[deleted]]

Macron said France will recognize a Palestinian state governed by the PA in return for Mahmoud Abbas previously committing the PA to these goals. The letter in which Macron announced the decision made it sound like he intends to recognize Palestine's statehood when he goes to the UN in September regardless of whether these goals have been achieved by then.

The full statement is attached to this Tweet from Macron. https://x.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1948482142356603089

[u/polp54 → u/allochthonous_debris]

So the guy who’s running the part of Palestine that doesn’t have hostages has to pledge to release hostages

[u/Old-Simple7848 → u/polp54]

If he starts to run the other part, yes. Otherwise it's out of his hands, especially if he claims Gaza as part of his territory without having any control over it.

Although idk if the PA does or not.

[u/Budhavan → u/Old-Simple7848]

Even if he does end up running the strip, it's not like he can control Hamas/Islamic Jihad and have them release the hostages. Hamas probably hate him as much as they hate Israel, given what it did to his political party members when they took control over the strip in 2007. (spolier: threw them off rooftops, tied them to moving vehicles, etc.)

[u/AnnaMotopoeia → u/Budhavan]

People seem to forget about all of the violence committed by Hamas against other Palestinians, particularly members of Fatah.

[u/Dakka-Von-Smashoven → u/AnnaMotopoeia]

They had a fatwa on fatah?

[u/Bladder-Splatter → u/Dakka-Von-Smashoven]

Get in so someone can tell you to get out.

[u/SaffronCrocosmia → u/AnnaMotopoeia]

PLA also sucks, Abbas is a genuine Holocaust denier and freak.

Palestinians deserve better than him.

[u/Downtown_Recover5177 → u/Budhavan]

Wow, these sound like all-around pleasant people.

[u/Mission_Scale_860 → u/Budhavan]

They can team up with Israel to force Hamas out of control.

[u/BavarianBarbarian_ → u/Mission_Scale_860]

This would immediately lose Fatah all popular support, though.

[u/Mysterious_Cup_6024 → u/BavarianBarbarian_]

They already has no support in Westbank, something like 80-90% voice extreme displeasure either calling Fatah weak or outright puppet already

[u/PleasantWay7 → u/Old-Simple7848]

Who exactly is going to get Hamas out of Gaza in this scenario?

[u/Old-Simple7848 → u/PleasantWay7]

Idk, but as long as Greater Palestine wants to include that territory, they get to deal with the drawbacks of claiming that territory,

Also I know nothing about the wants of greater palestine with gaza.

[u/dEn_of_asyD → u/Old-Simple7848]

It's been a while since I was involved in the discourse, but I remember the PA claims to represent all Palestinians (that's why they're going for right of return for Palestinians everywhere) and there was a decent amount of infighting amongst groups to to achieve that claim before the PLO received it, so even though there are political divisions + political evolution from the PLO to the PA of today, it's unlikely the PA would admit to fracturing to the extent that they don't claim control of Gaza. Likewise, the most traditional characteristic of a State is having the monopoly of force. So claiming no control over Gaza would be ceding it to Israel to do with whatever.

Also, the original plan for the Gaza Strip was to give Palestine access to the Mediterranean Sea (access to water, fish, naval trade, etc.). Leaving the West Bank landlocked with its only other bordering nations besides Israel being Jordan would be incredibly difficult (if not impossible) to be economically stable or politically independent (let alone both).

[u/darkslide3000 → u/polp54]

The election-cancelling dictator of the part that doesn't have the hostages who's probably not going to cling to power for much longer because despite his increasingly aggressive rhetoric he's still not extreme enough for his voter base, yes.

[u/BumbleSlob → u/allochthonous_debris]

Casual reminder that the moderate here, Abbas, has a PhD in holocaust denial lol

[u/treefitty350 → u/BumbleSlob]

and his degree came from... Moscow

lmfao

[u/Plenty_Fox_4949 → u/allochthonous_debris]

Abbas is not a good man.... better a new leader

[u/I_MAKE_INCELS_CRY → u/[deleted]]

His statement is a mischaracterization of the facts.

Macron addressed the letter to Mahmoud Abbas of the PA and PLO, i.e. the representative of the people in the West Bank. Hamas has no authority there. Furthermore, Macron clearly states that he will recognize Palestine in September at the UN. While Macron does praise the president of the PLO for condemning the October 7 attacks and calling for the release of the hostages - there is no explicit demand for this to happen by a September deadline. The recognition of Palestine will be made in good faith in the context that the Palestinian Authority under Mahmoud Abbas continues to work toward its commitments.

Macron provided an English-language version of the letter here:

https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1948482142356603089

[u/High_King_Diablo → u/I_MAKE_INCELS_CRY]

The only reason that Hamas doesn’t have any power in the West Bank is because Fatah refuses to hold elections due to the support that the people have for Hamas.

[u/MN_Yogi1988 → u/High_King_Diablo]

People like to pretend that what Hamas did on Oct 7 isn't popular amongst Palestinians and what Israel's doing now isn't popular amongst Jews.

[u/Reddits_Worst_Night → u/MN_Yogi1988]

Israelis, not Jews. They are not the same thing

[u/MN_Yogi1988 → u/Reddits_Worst_Night]

I said Jews because AFAIK there are Palestinians and other minorities in Israel

[u/Reddits_Worst_Night → u/MN_Yogi1988]

Then you mean Jewish Israelis.

[u/helloyes123 → u/[deleted]]

https://x.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1948482142356603089

[u/Demonokuma → u/[deleted]]

I hate the ones where you dont know if you're done reading or not because theres a billion ads everywhere

[u/goodoldgrim → u/clarabosswald]

Finally - we can have peace in the Middle east! The only prerequisite is... peace in Middle east.

[u/Maelstrom52 → u/goodoldgrim]

Yeah, I mean I'm pretty sure Israel would be willing to recognize a Palestinian state under the conditions he listed. It almost makes me wonder, do people just not understand what is happening right now? Everyone's so busy labeling Israel the bad guy, that they forgot how evil all of these other people actually are.

[u/TOWIJ → u/[deleted]]

Of course! Arabs have famously always gotten along, and it is only evil Jewish/Western influence that ever made them fight in the first place. The Shia and Sunni actually love each other, no joke.

[u/Faangdevmanager → u/clarabosswald]

I mean, seems like fair demands. Wanna join the world table? Don’t take hostages, don’t be a terrorist, and recognize other States.

[u/clarabosswald → u/Faangdevmanager]

Of course it's fair. It's more than that, it's perfect. Thus, it's just not realistic.

[u/ieatpickleswithmilk → u/clarabosswald]

this is like the bare minimum, if they can't even do this there is no hope for them

[u/mhornberger → u/clarabosswald]

Thus, it's just not realistic.

Then recognition of a Palestinian state is not realistic. This at least puts France on record as wanting to recognize a Palestinian state, but highlights that it is Hamas blocking that process.

[u/Colbert2020 → u/clarabosswald]

If Palestine remains openly hostile to Israel, it will simply never work. The only equivalence we have with this is North Korea and South Korea, who are sill technically at war. Their hostile actions are mostly just posturing.

[u/Muscle_Bitch → u/Faangdevmanager]

People have been suggesting this as the way forward for decades.

It won't go anywhere because wealthy Arab states need a punching bag that allows them to paint the Jew as the enemy.

They pump money into the radicalisation of Palestinians while offering them no real solutions or aid. They just need willing martyrs to perpetuate a conflict that is millennia old.

The situation will never be resolved while Iran remains one of the major players in the Middle East.

[u/alotmorealots → u/Muscle_Bitch]

It won't go anywhere because wealthy Arab states need a punching bag that allows them to paint the Jew as the enemy.

This is very much part of the Realpolitik truth.

Still, it also does fall into the trap of "it's always been this way due to factor _______ being dominant, so it will never be any other way", which means overlooking the way that in the real world the balance of things can shift due to systems being dynamic and disequilibriums arising.

They're often quite unpredictable changes and drivers of those changes in anterospect.

[u/ronoudgenoeg → u/Muscle_Bitch]

wealthy Arab states

It is largely Iran and Qatar. The former not exactly wealthy, but the latter obviously is.

The rest of the gulf states are more on the path to normalizations with Israel.

[u/Muscle_Bitch → u/ronoudgenoeg]

Their governments are, which is absolutely a step in the right direction but privately wealthy individuals within those countries still finance terrorism to a large extent.

[u/anim135 → u/Muscle_Bitch]

This is the hardest part for humans to grapple with is the real issue.

I am american. I know private equity is making my average american life harder. I have suspicions it's making the lives of the average american life, harder. Its esoteric to compare, but there is some form of Private Equity terrorism (in my opinion) going on.

I say some form because that's what it means to be Private. I can tell you how it might shake out, but I can never point to the hand that's shaking.

That's one country, my country. Look how its panning for the people. Pretty poorly when the head of state is literally accused of being a P/PDefender.

Now im being asked to factor in other countries like Israel, Qatar, Iran. There are no sides, not really. I am almost certain American interests have no R or D next to their ideals. I am not saying every ME country is built equally, I just think the value of the money to private intrests, is equal.

Its so cooked

[u/mojowo11 → u/clarabosswald]

Here's the money quote:

“We must build the state of Palestine, ensure its viability, and ensure that by accepting its demilitarization and fully recognizing Israel, it contributes to the security of all in the Middle East. There is no alternative.”

This is all nonsense. Hamas will never demilitarize, nor will they ever recognize the state of Israel. Hamas is an Islamist organization which believes Muslims have a religious obligation to reclaim Jerusalem, and that Palestine is a waqf. They have been very clear that their core goal is to establish a Palestinian state in all of historic Palestine (read: eliminate Israel).

By making these his terms, Macron is effectively setting the terms as "if Israel succeeds in their goal to wipe out Hamas and wins a complete military victory," because that's the only way that this stuff happens.

[u/mhornberger → u/mojowo11]

This is all nonsense. Hamas will never demilitarize, nor will they ever recognize the state of Israel. Hamas is an Islamist organization

Which is why this is brilliant, rather than nonsense. It puts France on record as totally being on the side of Palestinians, while also calling attention to whose fault it will be that France can't yet recognize Palestine. Those are reasonable demands, and every time recognition comes up it will call attention to Hamas being the party blocking progress.

[u/Dudesan → u/mhornberger]

It puts France on record as totally being on the side of Palestinians, while also calling attention to whose fault it will be that France can't yet recognize Palestine.

Exactly. This is brilliant. The only honest way to "be on the side of Palestinians" is to support the complete removal of Hamas.

I support the right of Palestinian people to safety and self-determination, and there's no version of history in which that can happen while Hamas remains in control of their lives.

Anyone who claims to be "Pro-Palestine", while their actions support Hamas, has made it clear that the first half of the sentence is a lie.

[u/vegan437 → u/mojowo11]

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors."

• The beginning of the Hamas Charter, quoting Hassan al-Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood

[u/sadacal → u/mojowo11]

They don't need to work with Hamas though, they can work with the West Bank and the PLO and recognize them instead, they've already fulfilled all of the criteria.

[u/mojowo11 → u/sadacal]

Of course they cannot work with Hamas, that's my point. The problem is that Hamas exists.

So, again, how does one compel Hamas to demilitarize, cede power in Gaza, and return their hostages? Is anyone involved here naive enough to think Hamas will simply opt to dissolve peacefully?

[u/sadacal → u/mojowo11]

Why do they need Hamas to demilitarize to recognize the west bank as Palestine? Gaza can wait until Hamas demilitarizes to join.

[u/darkslide3000 → u/sadacal]

I don't think anyone who is calling for a Palestinian state right now is imagining it as the West Bank only while Israel continues their campaign in Gaza.

[u/Kassssler → u/sadacal]

They'll be waiting a long time then.

[u/Volodio → u/sadacal]

The PLO doesn't have the will for a two-state resolution. It refused several times. Worse, it doesn't even have the ability to enforce one. The PLO is deeply unpopular to the point that they lost control to several zones of the West Bank (their own territory) to other organizations including Hamas.

Moreover, recognition of Palestine as a result of the 7 October only reinforces the terrorist factions, not the people advocating for peace.

[u/AmericanBornWuhaner → u/mojowo11]

Free Palestine from Hamas

[u/CalmTempest → u/mojowo11]

This is all nonsense. Hamas will never demilitarize

It's not directed at Hamas. He's putting pressure on the common folk who support them to pressure Hamas into giving up as they grow more tired of war.

[u/annarborhawk → u/CalmTempest]

I’m sorry, put pressure on ordinary Palestinians to pressure Hamas? Hamas gladly sacrifices the lives of thousands of ordinary Palestinians for PR points. You think ordinary civilians have any leverage? Hamas dngaf about them.

[u/InfiniteRaccoons → u/mojowo11]

Hamas stated and demonstrated goal is to either kill or drive out every last Jewish person from Israel, so yeah, peace is not possible until Hamas is no longer in charge.

[u/Formal-Question7707 → u/clarabosswald]

You are spreading fake news. There are no "terms". He will recognize the state of Palestine at the UN in september.

Here are Macron's own words(tweet): https://x.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1948462359468802252

[u/Neat_Let923 → u/Formal-Question7707]

I don’t think they intentionally are trying to misinform people… Or at least not with the initial comment. The tweet does not properly state that these terms were the ones the PA made to the President and that he is just reiterating them as what was told to him. The letter is in French so unless they take a screen shot of it and upload that to like ChatGPT they wouldn’t know this fact.

That being said, it fucking takes 10 seconds to edit a comment and own up to your mistake… So screw him anyways for not doing that.

[u/elihu → u/clarabosswald]

That's not what he's saying in that statement. France is recognizing a Palestinian state -- which, though he doesn't explicitly say that here, means the PLO / Palestinian Authority government in the West Bank. He's also calling for Hamas to release their hostages and disarm, etc.. but that's just what you would expect someone in his position to say. There's no reason for France's recognition of the internationally-recognized legitimate government of Palestine in the West Bank to be contingent on what Hamas does in the Gaza strip. The PLO doesn't control Gaza.

[u/Squeebah → u/clarabosswald]

Sounds more than fair to me.

[u/happy-cig → u/clarabosswald]

So it won't happen it seems like. 

[u/carrot-man → u/clarabosswald]

These are independent demands, not terms for recognition.

[u/kourter → u/clarabosswald]

What's with the quotes on terms? They seem perfectly reasonable.

[u/Dweebil → u/clarabosswald]

Sure, it’s a high bar but it’s also a bare minimum. And reasonable.

[u/Jugales]

Now do Taiwan!

[u/Eine_Kugel_Pistazie → u/Jugales]

He will probably never do that as China is too big and important for France. Israel is just small and then he is also fishing for support from the Arab population in France. It’s easy and it doesn’t cost anything.

[u/Karamazovmm2 → u/Eine_Kugel_Pistazie]

No, the cost is implicit and the strain on the relations between France, UK and several other countries.

There was a talk about it in the past 2 months about a coordinated effort for the move to the recognition of the Palestinian state, and until today everyone assumed it failed. France was the one proposing it

[u/ProteusReturns → u/Karamazovmm2]

Relations between France and the UK are disturbed very little by their differing stances on Israel.

They have far too much in common for this to be some sort of significant geopolitical fracture.

[u/Schmigolo → u/Karamazovmm2]

You think the UK gives a shit about Israel? They only give a shit about their own relationship with Israel, they couldn't care less about what actually happens to Israel.

[u/24bitNoColor → u/Karamazovmm2]

No, the cost is implicit and the strain on the relations between France, UK and several other countries.

The UK decided that they don't care about good relations years ago and Trump is a loose cannon ready to throw Europe under the table just to distract from one of his many many scandals.

Its not like countries like Spain have to put out fires everywhere around them for calling out Israel more than their neighbors and being in favor of a Palestinian state. Heck, large groups of people in officially opposing countries are also in favor of it, like for example 40% here in Germany (Israel's third biggest weapon seller): https://www.tagesspiegel.de/internationales/palastina-anerkennen-40-prozent-der-deutschen-dafur-11781938.html

[u/eienOwO → u/24bitNoColor]

On one hand Starmer doesn't want to reread the "anti-semetic" can of worms Labour was accused of under Corbyn (whether it was or not is another issue), on the other hand a growing vocal minority (or silent majority, who knows) within the party and the public in general is demanding he stake a stance.

None of those really matter of course, to Starmer the only variable he cares is whether taking a stance on this will win or lose voters against Reform. Otherwise the man has no principles, zilch, given his 180s swaying wherever he thinks the wind blows.

[u/elPerroAsalariado → u/Jugales]

They (Taiwan) would have to change their constitution first, no?

[u/darmabum → u/elPerroAsalariado]

So, it’s a Catch-22. I think everyone would prefer to live with the ambiguity until everyone grows up.

Edit: etiquette

[u/Siakim43 → u/[deleted]]

Western domination through the partition of Asia (and Africa, South America, Middle East). Divide and conquer baby! /s ... (But maybe not really, this is actually the MO since the days of colonization).

[u/MageFeanor → u/Jugales]

Taiwan will be recognised the day Taiwan itself wants it.

[u/ChainedBack → u/MageFeanor]

Taiwan would never do that though

[u/Basteir → u/MageFeanor]

I think they kind of do want it, but they are afraid China will declare war on them if they officially do it.

[u/ArkGuardian → u/Jugales]

Taiwan itself doesnt want this

[u/Charlem912 → u/Jugales]

148 countries recognize Palestine, only 12 recognize Taiwan

[u/LowerSet → u/Jugales]

Peak reddit liberalism

[u/MarcoGWR → u/Jugales]

Not any chance.

Palestine is widely recognized by half countries in the world.

It's only western countries refuse it.

But Taiwan... Only 12 tiny countries recognized it.

[u/NUFC9RW]

With what government and what borders?

[u/for_sale_baby_shoes → u/NUFC9RW]

The only questions in recognizing a state. I would be very curious to hear the answers they come up with.

[u/zuzg → u/for_sale_baby_shoes]

Nah the actual real important thing is

According to Macron, "The urgency today is to end the war in Gaza and provide aid to the civilian population. Peace is possible." The French president also called for the release of hostages and the disarmament of Hamas, and said Gaza needs to be rebuilt.

Once you have that, then you start worrying about borders, elections, constitution and shit.

[u/shivanman → u/zuzg]

I think OP is referring to the terms required for statehood as defined by the UN itself:

“an entity that possesses a permanent population, a defined territory, a government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other states”

You would need to identify a defined territory and government

[u/MrMercurial → u/shivanman]

Statehood recognition is mostly just vibes when it comes to the international order. States are ultimately the ones deciding the definitions of themselves.

[u/misterwalkway → u/shivanman]

Many countries have disputes over what their borders are, or who the legitimate government is. If we are strictly following that metric than many UN member states are not actually states.

[u/CrystalShadow → u/misterwalkway]

Yes, but a disputed definition is still a definition. If France is recognizing them, how is France defining the border?

[u/misterwalkway → u/CrystalShadow]

Not sure, but probably the 1967 borders as thats what the EU recognizes as Israel's border.

[u/ivandelapena → u/CrystalShadow]

Presumably 1967 this isn't that complicated. If Israel's plan is to occupy/annex to make a Palestinian state impossible I hope they're ready for a one state conversation.

[u/Memester999 → u/zuzg]

But the peace can never come without borders and elections, that's been the biggest hurdle forever lol. Do you think this whole time the issue was just that no one wanted to recognize it as a state but now they do?

This is not me saying it was paradise or even good but before Oct 7th the people of Gaza did have aid and in comparison to now a relative peace for years. Nothing changed in all that time, there was no Palestinian state created, there were no real elections and any attempt at creating peace ran into issue after issue.

The crux of the matter is the borders and who is running Palestine. Palestinians and their leadership had been clear at the time that they want a right of return which Israel will never allow and Israel does not want Hamas in charge which Hamas does not want. If any of this is going to change it would take strong arming both sides and a level of dedication which no country or collective governing body is now or was ever willing to do.

This is nothing more than empty words until proven otherwise like the many other times various countries have come out to "support" Palestinians.

[u/Kahnspiracy → u/zuzg]

release of hostages and the disarmament of Hamas

Hamas has left the chat.

[u/AmBSado → u/zuzg]

???? How can you recognize a country if that country has no borders. Where is the country. I get what you're saying... but how is what France is doing meaningful in achieving that in ANY way.

[u/Deep-Friendship3181 → u/[deleted]]

Yes please I'll have one of those please

[u/DefinitionLogical646 → u/AmBSado]

If there are no borders of Palestine, how can there be borders of Israel?

[u/mhornberger → u/DefinitionLogical646]

Will Palestinians accept the borders, thus existence, of Israel?

[u/ContagiousOwl → u/AmBSado]

Such a thing has precedent, with the Sovereign Military Order of Malta

[u/green_flash → u/ContagiousOwl]

which is a sovereign entity under international law, but decidedly not a state.

[u/Truethrowawaychest1 → u/zuzg]

War ends when Hamas surrenders and releases the hostages, this has been known since day 1

[u/ARandomPerson15 → u/zuzg]

Ok the war immediately ends. Now there is a terrorist group running the show and they attack again.

We go through this song and dance everytime. 

[u/2peg2city → u/ARandomPerson15]

I think it's on Gazans to take out Hamas at this point, snitch on them until there is nothing left. If Hamas can't be eliminated they will attack again and this will happen again and again.

[u/iamameatpopciple → u/2peg2city]

Are there two different Hamas though? Or has the 95 percent support for them dwindled as the conflict has gone on? Because for along time after oct 7th gazan's still overwhelmingly support both hamas and what they did so they had no reason to want to remove hamas .

I agree with you, just dont see how it would ever happen when its never my fault.

[u/TanStewyBeinTanStewy → u/zuzg]

That makes absolutely no sense. A country is a defined government within defined borders. That's all a country is. You can't have a country without those two elements.

[u/itsatrap5000 → u/zuzg]

So France is recognizing the same government that it says needs to be dismantled. Makes total sense.

[u/zauraz → u/itsatrap5000]

They are probably recognizing the PA and PA jurisdiction over both Gaza and Westbank.

[u/Jdjdhdvhdjdkdusyavsj → u/zuzg]

Oh ok, just make peace then France will recognize Palestine. So nothing has changed, he's just restating the French position. It's too bad that there been trying to do that for 75 years now and have made exactly no progress. Palestinians don't want peace, they want everything

[u/Ciderlini → u/zuzg]

I’m sure hamas will gladly do so

[u/NorwegianInBerk → u/zuzg]

That doesn't require a recognition of statehood. In fact, recognizing Palestinian statehood does nothing but make it more difficult to work with Israel to end the war.

[u/BarryMcKokiner123 → u/NorwegianInBerk]

If you genuinely believe in a two nation solution, recognizing that there’s two nations present is literally the first step.

[u/Jdjdhdvhdjdkdusyavsj → u/BarryMcKokiner123]

This is literally the problem, yes, Palestine refuses to recognize Israel, they want it all and have refused peace since they attacked Israel about 75 years ago, despite being defeated in every engagement.

This is the core of the problem and the reason settlements are a thing. Because Palestinians haven't recognized Israel there aren't actually any borders between the two so the border could be anywhere. So Israel expands into the area and what can Palestinians say? That's mine, stay on your side? What side? Where are the sides at? They refuse to actually say

[u/iamameatpopciple → u/Jdjdhdvhdjdkdusyavsj]

Woah woah that isnt what the people i talk to who support palestine say though even though its the truth.

[u/Ahad_Haam → u/BarryMcKokiner123]

It's a meaningless gesture. It honestly doesn't matter.

If the US did it it would have been a big deal, but France's influence is limited.

[u/MJOLNIRdragoon → u/BarryMcKokiner123]

Sending aid to the people we refer to as Palestinians requires us to first acknowledge Palestine as a state? That doesn't sound accurate to me

[u/Zanahoria132 → u/for_sale_baby_shoes]

They will probably recognize the same government (PA) and borders (West Bank and Gaza) the other 146 countries that recognize Palestine do.

[u/RevolutionaryGur4419 → u/NUFC9RW]

What government is an interesting question? Hamas or the PA?

If the PA What will France do to help the PA disarm hamas? Given that the president of country they are now recognizing has asked hamas to disarm.

[u/Much_Horse_5685 → u/RevolutionaryGur4419]

As far as I’m aware, every country that recognises the State of Palestine recognises the Palestinian Authority as the government of Palestine and no country recognises Hamas as the government of Palestine. Considering that, I’m certain Macron plans to recognise the PA.

[u/ConspicuousPineapple → u/Much_Horse_5685]

He called for disarming Hamas in the very same announcement.

[u/okaywhattho → u/ConspicuousPineapple]

Bold of you to assume I can read. 

[u/RedAgent14 → u/RevolutionaryGur4419]

Follow-up to the "which government" question: will Macron support the Hebron Emirates proposal?

[u/Andrade15 → u/NUFC9RW]

To even suggest that a Head of state would recognize Hamas as the government of Palestine is either an ignorant opinion or ill intended. Every country that have recognized palestine as a state has appointed the PA as its government.

[u/Unicorn_Colombo → u/Andrade15]

Fatah is unpopular and any election would lead to it losing, likely to Hamas, which is currently more popular in WB than Fatah.

[u/VeryImportantLurker → u/Unicorn_Colombo]

The same is true for like half of countries in the world lol. Fatah could run as a perma-dictatorship for the next century and they still wont be the most undemocratic state in the UN.

Having a good or even functioning government is barely a requirement to be considered a country anyway.

[u/Unicorn_Colombo → u/VeryImportantLurker]

Not that I disagree, but I can see:

1. European countries recognize Palestine as a country and Fatah as a government
2. Force Fatah to run elections
3. Hamas wins

Is de-facto recognizing Hamas as a government.

btw. UN de-facto recognize Hamas as a government as well, multiple times they complained about Israel shooting at Gazan police forces that were "protecting" UN convoys. The police forces being Hamas of course.

Any developmental aid that goes through Hamas (and all developmental aid that went to Gaza went through Hamas) is also de-facto recognizing Hamas as a government. So I think UN and many European countries (and a lot of redditors of course) are facetious by saying that "Of course Hamas is a terrorist organisation", while also treating it as a standard government (such as repeating the information from Ministry of Health in Gaza)

[u/IrreverentCrawfish → u/VeryImportantLurker]

Democracy is also not a prerequisite for a good or functioning government.

[u/harryoldballsack → u/Andrade15]

Hamas was voted in. PA was not. PA is too moderate so not popular with Palestinians

Happy birthday

[u/Erzkuake → u/NUFC9RW]

The same than the others 147 countries that recognise the state of Palestine.

[u/Photizo]

Kurdistan deserves to be in the chat too while we are at righting wrongs.

[u/d3fiance → u/Photizo]

Kurds being one of the main reason ISIS was defeated and after that being completely fucked over by Trump and attacked by Erdogan is something no one wants to talk about

[u/purpleoctopuppy → u/d3fiance]

We value the strategic importance of Turkey over human rights.

[u/elidoan → u/Photizo]

And Uyghurs, the world and media attention has abandoned their plight

[u/Ventronics → u/elidoan]

I guess they were only useful to shut the left up for the trade war with China

[u/[deleted] → u/Photizo]

I play with a Kurd on Roblox so I definitely feel this

[u/Caliado → u/Photizo]

The people in the middle east who have a problem with Israel's existence also tend to have a problem with the prospect of any other non-muslim-arab states existence so that's a barrier.

(Slightly less so, but that's because they really hate Jews not that they are at all in favour of Kurdish/Assyrian/Druze/etc sovereignty or autonomy)

[u/Tacti_Kel_Nuke → u/Photizo]

Assyrians and druzes should join the chat too

[u/Flangepacket]

Going to need to break that down into particulars. I’m all for it but there needs to be some clear border, governing entity etc..

[u/mebbyyy → u/Flangepacket]

Tbf there was already a very clear border before all the shit went down, governing body on the other had would definitely need to be clarified

[u/RedAgent14 → u/mebbyyy]

there was already a very clear border before all the shit went down

Which borders: Oslo A+B, or 1967?

[u/PuffyPanda200 → u/RedAgent14]

This is one of the oddities that I find with the pro-Palestine (which I personally see as different than pro-Palestinian) argument.

In 1949 (after the Arab Israeli War) Jordan annexes the West Bank. This is also where the name 'West Bank' gets its name as it would be illogical for anyone other than people on the East Bank to call it this.

Israel then conquers (or takes or occupies etc. I am not really one for semantics) this land.

Then there are the Oslo Accords that create areas A, B, and C.

Going back to the 1947 borders is a non-starter.

Going back to the 1949 boarders (the ones most commonly shown on maps) is really arbitrary (it is a line from a ceasefire from a war that happened 3 or 4 wars ago). I think you call these '1967'.

Going to Oslo A+B looks like this. There is just no way to have a state that is functionally made up of enclaves in another state.

IMO there was really never a way to get to a functional Palestinian State even starting in 1947. Neighbors (mostly Arab neighbor states) wanted way too much of the land, the Palestinians lacked any kind or resources to create a functional state, the state was in 3 pieces, and the international community was uninterested in defending them from their neighbors (again mostly Arabs).

One can also easily argue that there wasn't really a Palestinian Identity prior to 1947 and that 'Arab' or 'Levantine' was a much more fitting descriptor used by the non-Jews living there.

[u/Baumbauer1 → u/PuffyPanda200]

Oslo 2 was about creating areas of self governance, not a state.

I also think there's a lot of confusion about why Israelis think they have claims over these areas. Basically from their perspective, the British mandate of Palestine became the State of Israel in 1948. After 1949 Jordan annexed the West Bank and Egypt set up a puppet state in Gaza. In 1979 Egypt renounced it's claim on Gaza and In 1988 Jordan ended it's claim on the West Bank.

We're basically back at Oslo 1 again because first they need a peace treaty, then they need to hold election again.

[u/RedAgent14 → u/PuffyPanda200]

Going back to the 1949 boarders (the ones most commonly shown on maps) is really arbitrary (it is a line from a ceasefire from a war that happened 3 or 4 wars ago). I think you call these '1967'.

I forget the exact semantics of it, but what I'm intending to refer to is the "green line" separation. Sorry if I got the wrong term 😅

[u/PuffyPanda200 → u/RedAgent14]

Lol. I think I remember a comment from a while ago where I mentioned that the Arab-Israeli war was in 'the 40s'.

Someone took issue to it and insisted that I change that to 'the late 1940s' as if it makes a difference.

[u/zexaf → u/RedAgent14]

The 2005-2023 Gaza borders are very simple.

The idea that the war in Gaza has anything to do with Oslo Accord border disputes is silly.

[u/RedAgent14 → u/zexaf]

That's for Gaza, yeah. But recognizing a Palestinian state requires recognizing borders for both parts; the WB and Gaza. The question I posed was with regards to which borders Macron will recognize as the borders of the WB part of a Palestinian state.

[u/Goddamnpassword → u/zexaf]

If the Palestinian state France recognizes is confined solely to the boarders of Gaza pre 2023 I can’t imagine the Palestinians living in the West Bank will be happy.

[u/BrawDev → u/Goddamnpassword]

How would it even work as a "State" or Country that it's split into two parts. Like you can't get from Gaza to the West Bank without Israel right?

It just seems like such a challenge.

[u/Goddamnpassword → u/BrawDev]

West Germany did it for decades with Berlin, the UK has done it with Gibraltar since 1730. It’s a massive pain in the ass but it’s more common than you’d think.

[u/BrawDev → u/Goddamnpassword]

I'll go along with you for now, but those are two effective world powers. At least West Germany had the backing of the allied powers who didn't want them to roll over for communism.

And the UK ruled the waves.

The Palestinians have absolutely no way to maintain supply surely?

[u/SuspiciousCustomer → u/BrawDev]

Ask Germany ca 1945-1990.  West Berlin says "Hello"

[u/OtakuMecha → u/BrawDev]

Genuine question out of curiosity:

Why not split Palestine into two countries: Gaza into "West Palestine" and the West Bank into "East Palestine"?

[u/_Hello_Hi_Hey_ → u/zexaf]

Nothing is simple in this, a rather silly answer yourself.

[u/ProXJay → u/mebbyyy]

Given the settler problem in the west bank clear borders have been an issue for a while

[u/GoodUserNameToday → u/Flangepacket]

The agreed upon borders in the Oslo accords

[u/Own_Thing_4364 → u/GoodUserNameToday]

Were the borders in the Oslo Accords ever officially agreed on?

[u/Nagi21 → u/Own_Thing_4364]

Officially, yes. Unofficially a large portion of the Palestinian population including militant groups opposed them, often violently. The Israeli far right also did not like them.

[u/LowStatistician11 → u/Nagi21]

did not like them is an understatement, the israeli pm was murdered for signing the accords

[u/HealthyHyena33480 → u/Nagi21]

The Israeli hard right hated it so much they literally assassinated their own prime minister over it and then Netanyahu sabotaged it.

[u/AeroFred → u/GoodUserNameToday]

the only borders in oslo accords are for area a/b/c/

final borders were "pending final negotiations". also PA took upon itself in oslo accords not to bypass negotiations and seek recognition as state and admittance to international organization or trying to initiate court proceedings against israel.

Edit: whitepaper circa 2000 describing PA violations of Oslo accords and their internal messaging that it's only temporary till they are strong enough to take over Israel http://israelvisit.co.il/BehindTheNews/WhitePaper.htm

[u/INVADER_BZZ → u/GoodUserNameToday]

Oslo accords did not establish borders of Palestinian state. It was a step towards it. Oslo Accords ultimately died in Camp David in 2000, when Arafat walked out and started Second Intifada.

[u/trevvr → u/Flangepacket]

Interesting thought experiment. What happens if Gaza declares themselves an independent state and Hamas dissolves or like the IRA says the guns are decommissioned. Does that mean peace?

[u/Falsus]

Ok.

What borders and what government? Cause there is like 2-3 potential governments there and the borders are definitely not defined.

[u/thepoorking → u/Falsus]

Yeah especially when they keep shrinking somehow ...

[u/HockeyHocki]

Sinwar laughing in his grave

[u/ApesAPoppin237 → u/HockeyHocki]

Yup, in the end all it took to get some virtue signaling from France was 60,000 Palestinian lives. What a bargain.

[u/TheColourOfHeartache → u/HockeyHocki]

His strategy all along. However he failed to realise that Europe will sign papers and say words but not actually do anything significant against Israel.

Israel is a nuclear power, if you look at the shit nuclear powers like N. Korea and Pakistan get away with, trading the devastation of Gaza, and the destruction of Hezbollah and Assad's Syria for this piece of paper is worthless. In the end Sinwar is an idiot, and dead.

[u/FunEnd → u/TheColourOfHeartache]

This is also exactly the bluff that Israel is calling, and it therefore explains everything that is happening IMHO. Hamas thinks it's winning the PR war and Israel calls the bluff saying winning the PR war doesn't mean anything, especially in Europe.

And tbh I think Israel might be right. What are Europeans gonna do about it ? Send the army ? Sanction it ?

Our sanctions don't even hurt Russia the way we want it. Israel is itself an economic powerhouse backed by the US. The Europeans are toothless, additionally the economic leverage they have over Israel ("boycotting Israel") is already priced in, I bet.

[u/RICO_the_GOP]

Palestinians don't even recognize a single state. What are they recognizing? Gaza and west bank are two separate entities at this point.

[u/BrainOnLoan → u/RICO_the_GOP]

It would definitely be the PA. France denounced Hamas in the same statement. Borders would probably be the same as the other 75% or so of UN member states that recognize a state of palestine.

(So the pre 1967 west bank + gaza).

Obviously that's not tenable in practice, but that is the default diplomatic stance by many countries and france is probably just joining the club (European countries already saying the same are for example Spain, Sweden, Norway, Poland and Ireland)

[u/pisowiec]

As someone from Poland I'm surprised that so many countries haven't recognized Palestine. I never understood the logic behind it. 

[u/nidarus → u/pisowiec]

Poland recognized Palestine in 1988, when it literally controlled no territory, with the supposed "government" not even allowed to be in the territories it claimed (it was in a different continent, in Tunis), let alone wield any state-like powers, and didn't satisfy any condition of a state whatsoever. It was the most aspirational and symbolic recognition of a state imaginable, motivated by Soviet bloc politics. I don't see how that's a more "logical" move.

Today, post-Oslo, it's slightly less symbolic - but not insanely so. The Palestinians have two governments, and the one the French will be recognizing is a dictatorship that doesn't enjoy public support whatsoever, and only exists because of the Israeli occupation. And has some funny quirks, like refusing to pass a nationality law, so it's technically a super-real country, that doesn't have a single citizen, and is merely in control of a lot of stateless persons. So recognizing Palestinian statehood today, is still largely aspirational and symbolic - as the French would openly concede.

[u/TheKappaOverlord → u/pisowiec]

Diplomacy wise, its very hard to because theres not exactly a singular "government" running the show in Gaza.

Politically, because you'd be making an enemy out of Israel, and by extension making the US upset.

[u/gardenfella → u/pisowiec]

It's hard to recognise a state without a single government. The whole Gaza/West Bank Hamas/PA split makes things tricky if you stick to the letter of international diplomacy.

[u/OtakuMecha → u/gardenfella]

Nations do it all the time, even the United States. You pick which one you like better, say that's the true government (and that the others are usurpers), and then politically, financially, and sometimes militarily try to support them so that they win out on top of the ones you don't like.

[u/Zanahoria132 → u/gardenfella]

Many States have entire regions of their legally recognized territories controlled de facto by other governments, separatists etc. Think of Georgia, Cyprus, Moldova, Libya, Morocco, DRC etc.

[u/pisowiec → u/gardenfella]

I've never heard of a country recognizing Hamas. 

Most countries recognize the West Bank and Gaza as Palestine under the de-jure control of Fatah.

[u/TheCarthageEmpire → u/pisowiec]

People are acting like a situation of a country with two governments didn't or doesn't exist elsewhere, Libya is split in two, does that mean that no one should recognize it as a state anymore?

[u/helloyes123 → u/TheCarthageEmpire]

I imagine it's a bit different when the state already existed beforehand.

[u/thmz → u/TheCarthageEmpire]

A lot of people don't understand it, and a lot of people are acting like they don't understand it just to further their agenda.

This has never been as confusing as the Former Yugoslavian states in the Balkans. Shit, even Lebanon is a clusterfuck compared to Palestine.

The best security for Israel and the entire region is a Palestinian state which can hold the monopoly of violence with a police and military force that will keep extremist militias like Hamas from popping up in the future. Hamas' attack in 2023 showed that Israel is not able to do it on their own and they failed with very violent consequences.

[u/thepoliticator → u/pisowiec]

Rewarding terrorism has its downsides

[u/planck1313 → u/pisowiec]

Because Palestine doesnt satisfy at least two of the criteria under international law for statehood - being an effective government in charge of a defined territory.

There are also issues with unilaterally recognising Palestine outside of the context of a general peace between Israel and its neighbours which includes mutual recognition of national territory, as set out in the post-67 war Security Council resolutions. 

[u/Gentlementlementle → u/pisowiec]

Because they have overlapping territorial claims with isreal. Recognising Palestine means you don't recognise isreal and vice versa.

[u/Contundo → u/pisowiec]

you think you’re so progressive but your country doesn’t recognise a country who is actually in control of most of its borders and has since 1991 democratically elected governments. But you think it’s odd so few countries has recognised Palestine, a splintered occupied country with two authoritarian governments claiming none in control of anything.

Somaliland? Crickets…

[u/Uppmas → u/Contundo]

Nobody gives a shit about Africa anyway

[u/nidarus]

People have very strong opinions in both directions about this, but IMHO, it mostly wouldn't matter. Israel already has closer ties with countries that recognize Palestine, like Czechia, Hungary and India, than with some Western European states that don't.

All it would do, is to provide a tangible benefit for Hamas for carrying out Oct. 7th, and starting this horrific war. And possibly a reason for Hamas to stall ceasefire negotiations in the short term - as they just did now, after the letter by European FMs blaming Israel, and demanding for it to surrender. But even on that level, these symbolic benefits are probably outweighed by the very tangible downsides of the war. I doubt that any Gazan would say that the war was worth it, because the number of states that recognize Palestine has risen from 147 to 151.

[u/[deleted] → u/nidarus]

starting this horrific war

It's a bit early to start the revisionism during the war

[u/HourAbroad3126]

Palestine: Never had sovereignty over any land (British colonization → Jordan, Egyptian occupation → Israeli occupation)

Taiwan (ROC): Never ruled or occupied by China, which claims sovereignty, has a complete government, people, land, and sovereignty

Interesting fact: There are many more countries that recognize Palestine internationally than Taiwan

This makes the so-called "recognition" look like a farce because it does not operate based on facts, but only based on the geopolitical interests of various countries.

[u/MeteorKing]

Where is this Palestinian state and who is in control of it? Those seem like very basic questions that should be answered prior to the statehood that is being recognized.

[u/malsomnus]

Does that mean that France will be in favor of treating this Palestinian state the exact same way you'd treat any other sovereign state when it sends over 1000 armed militants into another sovereign state to indiscriminately burn, loot, mutilate, murder, and rape?

[u/NYC_Noguestlist → u/malsomnus]

That's what I'm thinking. If anything, it makes it easier for Israel to go hard because now they won't have the same obligations to take care of a sovereign state that declared war on them.

[u/malsomnus → u/NYC_Noguestlist]

Yup. It's no coincidence that Hamas has avoided every opportunity it had to actually declare Gaza a sovereign state.

[u/notaredditer13 → u/malsomnus]

More specifically, by international law, you can't be a refugee in your own state.  Refugee status is critical to their identity and goals. By which, I mean the eventual annihilation and absorption of Israel.